Collaboration: Birth Geeks and Birth Words Unite! with Hillary Melchiors - a podcast by Sara Pixton

In this episode, I collaborate with Hillary Melchiors from the Birth Geeks podcast, as we discuss three guiding principles for positive language during pregnancy and birth.

Transcript:

Hillary  

Hi, Sara!

 

Sara  

 Hi Hillary! How are you? I'm just fabulous. I'm so excited to be talking to you.

 

Hillary  

Ditto, I'm a big fan. I totally fangirled when I met you, by the way. Do you remember that?

 

Sara  

Oh, I totally remember. It made my evening. I was so nervous. And then I was like, people know me and appreciate me! It was very awesome. I really appreciate it. 

 

Hillary  

Oh, anytime. 

 

Sara  

Okay, good. Let's set up another meeting time so you can fangirl again. Okay, so yeah, this is Hillary Melchiors, right? 

 

Hillary  

Yeah!

 

Sara  

I actually just listened to your podcast so that I would say it right. But just the little intro part, like how does she say it? Okay, and Hillary is a podcast host too, over at the Birth Geeks. I'm going to see if I can remember your slogan... I know it's something about...oh: "Upping the--" but up is not the verb you use-- "Something, the professional something, getting the conversation, upgrading the conversation and something your professional mox--"

 

Hillary  

--helping you renew your professional moxy

 

Sara  

There we go, ok! "Upgrading the conversation, helping you renew your professional moxy."

 

Hillary  

Do you know, one of my daughters, actually, we had our kids record the tagline. And she kept saying "PROfessional" and we were laughing so hard. It's really cute. And this is Sara Pixton. Sara is a doula in Utah, but she's also a podcast host of Birth Words. So she's also a linguist, which I love, as a language nerd myself.

 

Sara  

One of my very favorite things that happened on social media was on Instagram a couple of weeks ago, somebody tagged me and was like, "There is literally a podcast for everything. If you're a word nerd and a birth geek, I just found your thing!" And I was like, I'm so glad I fill that niche for you!

 

Hillary  

Right? And now we are here.

 

Sara  

Yes, the word nerds, the birthy, wordy, nerdy geeks. That was a really, really good introduction.

 

Hillary  

 Yes. 

 

Sara  

I just have to comment one other thing, that your pin from the EBB conference, that "I'm a Birth Geek" pin that was like in the swag bags or whatever, my daughter found it the other day and was like, "What does a  birth geek mean?" And I was like, "It just means you just know and love every single thing about it." And she was like, "Great, can I wear the pin?" And then she had this kind of like identity crisis throughout the rest of the next few hours that she was wearing it where she was trying to defend her right to wear the pin, but like not totally sure that she wanted to commit to everything that it represented. She was like, "I'm a birth geek, because that means I love everything...well, I don't know if I love everything about birth, but like, I really like the pin."

 

Hillary  

Yeah, so we're recording this on Halloween it's going to be a little bit before we publish, but I wanted to tell you that my Birth Geek friends always have the best costumes. So one of my Birth Geek friends in Texas, she actually is dressed up as the IUD today. 

 

Sara  

Oh, wow! Can you put a picture of that in the show notes?

 

Hillary  

I should. Well, I have to ask her...

 

Sara  

 If it's with consent. 

 

Hillary  

I mean she's, she's technically, like, the reproductive system, because her hands have the ovaries on them, but very much the middle of her sweatshirt is a big IUD. Fantastic.

 

Sara  

Alright.

 

Hillary  

So hi! So today we're going to be talking about... what are we talking about Sara?

 

Sara  

We're talking about your top three tools to improve communication during pregnancy, birth and the postpartum period. Yeah.

 

Hillary  

Well, and as a doula, I really do try to get my my clients to communicate with their care providers more effectively. I think that's really important. Especially,because you have such a limited amount of time with them before the big day. So, you have to really be careful.

 

Sara  

Yeah. And you're probably one of many, many clients that they have, right. I mean, depending on circumstance, but especially if you're at a ob clinic, right? Right. Um, so yeah, knowing how to have that effective communication, really important. 

 

Hillary  

Absolutely. Well, and also, you know, as a doula, making sure that I'm communicating well with my clients and in a way that they want me to, I think that that's also good.

 

Sara  

Yeah. And then I think from your clients perspective, obviously, they're communicating with you, they're communicating with their care provider provider, they're communicating with nurses in the hospital, they're communicating with friends and family members who have maybe just different opinions, or thoughts, or stories about pregnancy and birth that might be thrown at them at any moment, with or without warning. 

 

Hillary  

That sounds like you have personal experience there.

 

Sara  

I have just, you know, like, maybe not even, I mean, some personal experience, certainly, but also just experience of listening to others stories, and experiences. So, I think that the things the tips that we're going to touch on will help you navigate all of those situations, because I think that the way that we talk and interact with other people makes a big difference in our experiences. 

 

Hillary  

Absolutely. 

 

Sara  

We're going to first talk about being intentional.

 

Hillary  

What does that mean to you, Sara? To be intentional, with their language?

 

Sara  

That's a really good question. Um, to me, it means a few things. One, is being aware, like we've been talking about, of the effect of the words that you produce, and also the discourse that you've been bathed in throughout your life, whichever ones they are. Just being--and now I'm kind of branching over into reflective, you can't really separate all of them, but we're trying--So intentional, just being aware that the way that I speak, and the words that I choose to incorporate in my belief system, and my feelings, and my experiences, make a big difference. So, I'm going to make sure that the ones that I'm using are positive and confidence building, right? 

 

Hillary  

Absolutely. Well, and as a doula, I feel like I'm combating a lot of the messages that my clients are getting from elsewhere. And so, when I'm more intentional about my language with clients, I think that that's very helpful for them. At least I, maybe I'm fooling myself that I'm not.

 

Sara  

I don't think so at all. I'm totally going to jump on board with that and say, yeah, because I think sometimes we're not intentional, but we're just, like, using the lingo that is used without pausing to consider, like in my Birth Words Community Facebook group yesterday, we just had this big discussion about the word deliver or delivery, which some people have strong feelings about, some people not as much. Some people feel like "I don't mind it if the mom is saying 'I delivered my baby,' but really mind it if the doctors are saying 'I'm going to deliver you, or deliver your baby,'" right? So we just had this big conversation about it, and one thing that just was brought to light is that some really, often not intentional, or, again, reflective is the next thing we're going to talk about, but we just choose words because, well, that's the one that was in What to Expect When You're Expecting or whatever. And so, I figured that's the word that we use.

 

Hillary  

Right. Well, I think also being intentional about even something really minor, like pronouns, for example.  You know, making sure that you're intentionally using inclusive language. That's very important to me. It's not for everybody, and that's okay. I don't know if it's okay. But it's a thing.  And I think that that's important as well. 

 

Sara  

Yeah, and, in addition, like, okay, we talked about pronouns, and nouns, and this can be from a gender neutral perspective, or just from a perspective of being empowering, which we'll talk about as our third prong. Now I've revealed all of them, there's no more dramatic tension except that Hillary's going to apparently surprise me with something down the road. So, don't tune out now, just because I've spilled all three beans. But yeah, I've been talking about just the words like client versus patient. What am I saying when I'm calling somebody a patient? What am I implying about their position and their abilities to make decisions and to, you know, just be an empowered participant?

 

Hillary  

Yes, you're making my medical anthropologist heart very happy right now. 

 

Sara  

Oh, good! Tell me why.

 

Hillary  

Well, that, that distinction, actually, between client and patient, I think, it's a powerful one, because of power distinctions. Right? Because a midwife, they intentionally say client most of the time, at least the ones I work with, and that's intentional because they work with people, right? They don't work on people, working on people. It's a little different. It's just a different perspective. 

 

Sara  

Oh, I was just getting excited about like we've talked about pronouns, nouns. Now we're talking about prepositions. Like it's all so important! We're working with people not on them. I love that distinction. And, yeah, I love it. Okay. And my other, back to nouns, my preferred noun is birthgiver because it's empowering and inclusive.

 

Hillary  

No, it's great. I think that's fantastic. I think it's important.

 

Sara  

Oh, I wanted before we move on from intentional, I also wanted to talk, just from the birthgiver's side of things, being intentional in the way that you and interact with your care provider, like we talked about the importance of, you know, making sure that you're having those conversations, but also being intentional about what you let in too, you know what I'm saying?

 

Hillary  

Yes. Have your earmuffs they filter everything, right?

 

Sara  

Yeah. Or I mean, or maybe there are things that have already been led in decades ago that are just like part of your identity as a birthgiver that are not helpful. Like, what do you do with that? Well, maybe you need to intentionally work through them and figure out, and again, we're going into the reflective portion... You can't really separate it out. But saying like, "Where did this come from? Do I place value in that? Can I separate myself from it?" And just like working through until you're left with an identity that is intentionally chosen and not just, kind of, what was thrust upon you.

 

Hillary  

I love it. It's almost a bridge from like being intentionally reflective.  

 

Sara  

There we go. Let's bridge Let's go there. 

 

Hillary  

Yeah no, I think we should reflect more on our own language, before we open, as we sit here and talk.  No, I think that a lot of there's a lot of unconscious bias and things that we say and we don't realize it. And I think, so, reflecting on the reasons for your word choices, I think that's also important.

 

Sara  

Yeah. Again, like just pausing and saying, "Oh, what just came out of my mouth?" or "What am I about to open my mouth and say?" would be the best place to pause. But sometimes, like a random example that comes to mind, I, for a while, was a volunteer doula at a local hospital that has a volunteer doula program. And so, I had a couple of women that I talked to that were maybe interested in my sport but they were, kind of, not quite ready for it yet. And I was going to go take a lunch break, and I was just telling the charge nurse, or, I don't remember who I was, the care coordinator that I was going to go down to lunch, but there were these people that were maybe interested in my sport so here's my phone number if they get to a point where they're like "Yeah, have her come," call me back up. Um, but I remember having this conversation with her and saying like, Oh yeah, I have these two or three patients in rooms blah blah, blah, blah blah. And then being like, wait, okay, A) I'm not even a care provider. Like I'm a volunteer doula. B) I had purposely avoided using that word, I wasn't quite as mindful about it at this point, but from that point where I was like, "What just came out of my mouth?" I've been really reflective about like, why did I say that? Where was it coming from? And part of it, I think, was like wanting to be savvy with the nurses, and use their lingo and whatever but if we're really reflecting ...Wow, yeah, yeah.

 

Hillary  

No, I was just gonna say like, it sounds to me like you were mirroring, right? Like, no matter if she said one word to you at all, you know that she's a nurse. So you're almost, you know, like, "Okay, now I'm talking to the nurse. So we're going to talk about patient."

 

Sara  

Yeah. So from the other side of it, when I was pregnant with my first two babies, because they're twins, I was on hospital bed rest for four weeks.  And that was totally something that I did during my time there, is that I started to mirror the nurses lingo.  Because I wanted to, you know, show them that I was smart and could like play their game and whatever.  Not that they were trying to play games. They were taking good care of me, I was in early labor at 30 weeks and we didn't want that to happen.  And they came at 35, so we hung on for a while. But yeah, I kind of wanted to use their lingo and very much became, I don't know, it was kind of this tricky place between, I was trying to empower myself as a patient, right? I was trying to be like, "See, I'm the savvy patient!" But I was very much assigning myself in the role of patient by just using all of this terminology that was very much placing me in that position. And a lot of ways, I was, there were a lot of medical needs that were needing to be cared for. But then I think it really affected my birth experience, when I was in labor that I had been in this position as a patient, using all the patient lingo and wasn't as intentional or thoughtful about the choices that I made during my labor.

 

Hillary  

That is interesting. Well, I was just thinking, as a doula I tried very hard not to, like overly use the medical language.  So, I feel like sometimes I'm like this cultural broker, not to be too anthropological.  But, you know, I can speak the medical language, I can give you the two minute rundown of everything that's happened, with all the abbreviations. Like, I know how to do that. But I intentionally try not to do that with my clients.

 

Sara  

Right. Because what position does that put them back in?  Like they're part of a medical system, and if they're trying to birth in a natural physiological system, whether that's at the hospital or not,

 

Hillary  

I was going to tell you, I did have a client who made me much more reflective on my language than I ever really thought about before. I got the opportunity to serve surrogate clients. And that really made me much more reflective about how I spoke to her. And, you know, she was excited, but for much different reasons than a lot of other people that I had the opportunity to serve. And it was a very interesting, it was very interesting, it made me so reflective, it just made me think, "Oh, wait, no, no, you're not, that's not your baby." And I took a really great training online actually, that made me think more about, you know, how I was going to speak to this person.

 

Sara  

Yeah, I think that's a really good example. Because like, because then I bet going forward, you were more reflective about the language that used with all your other clients, even if they weren't surrogate parents because you realized that they are unique individuals, right? That should be spoken to in unique ways based on their--

 

Hillary  

I may or may not have revised my entire website. Because I really enjoyed that process. And, I mean, that person in particular, is really lovely. And I was like, "Man I would love to do that again, I should make sure that, you know, my website and everything that I publish, you know, reflects that I want to be a part of that." So, and I know how to serve those people in a way that they would like to be.  So that that was a really, it was I felt like it was on the job training. But really, really rewarding.

 

Hillary  

So the last one is empowering. How do you make sure that your language is empowering?

 

Sara  

Well, we've talked about a couple of things and obviously, they're all intertwined and it comes a lot from being reflective saying: "What am I doing when I refer to my client as a patient? What is that implying about our relationship and her abilities to make decisions to birth without assistance?" etc, etc. And so we've talked about that, we've talked about using intentionally empowering terminology like birthgiver, like, giving birth versus being delivered, right? I also think, as we're talking about reflection and the unique experiences and needs of each client that you serve, or if you are the one giving birth, as you're reflective, as you're considering, something that I do with my clients is have them just sit down and think about "Okay, what are my feelings and beliefs about birth as a process?" Okay, next step, "What are my feelings and beliefs about myself as a birth giver?" And then if a partner is there doing it, "What are my partner's feelings?" Well, the partner fills out: "What are my feelings about my partner's abilities or role as a birthgiver?" Okay, what about the roles of authority figures? Because that comes up.  And different people are positioning themselves in different ways, and you're accepting or rejecting different authority figures throughout the whole process.

 

Hillary  

I am a big rule follower and Robin makes fun of me for that. There's a story, I'll tell you later.  Yeah, no, no, it's just, we were driving and I was like, "Oh, I can't do that. That's against the rules." And she was like, "It's okay. Going somewhere..." It's silly. 

 

Sara  

Yeah! Okay. But like, that's, okay so, but let's go with that. Because, we're talking about being reflective about various things that are going to come up in birth. And then, I was gonna say for the empowering part, then you work through, like we've talked about, the reflection: where's this coming from? And you choose, intentionally, again, looping back to being intentional, those things that are empowering. So, if Hillary's giving birth, and is a total rule follower, it really matters who you see as an authority figure, and what role you're going to let that authority figure play.  Like, if you see, if your care provider is, like, I don't want to do a negative stereotype, whatever, but if it's an obstetrician with a 50% cesarean rate, and you are induced for some medical reason, and you see your care provider is an ultimate authority figure--who has proven through their practice that, you know, they often choose those choices that lead towards the path of a cesarean--and you're just saying, "Okay, yes, yep, you're in charge," then you have a 50% chance of having a cesarean birth, which, obviously, is not in alignment with, like, the actual physiological medical needs for necessary birth. 

 

Hillary  

Yeah, and sometimes I feel like, well, so again, to put on my anthropologist hat, a little bit, I think that, you know, we're taught in our culture very much to respect the medical profession. And I think that that's a, it's a good thing. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but respect versus, like, doing literally everything you're told and never questioning anything is a very, very different thing. And so, respecting authority versus, like, bowing down to it, I think that you need to make that fine distinction.

 

Sara  

Yeah, like you're saying that we are absolutely, I'm not and I don't think Hillary is, advocating for, of course you're not being disrespectful to care providers, or like we are not saying like, go be a belligerent like, "No I won't _____!" That's not going to be a helpful way to communicate with your care provider, A).  B) It's not the respect that a human being deserves, especially one who is in a service oriented profession and serving you. C) I don't know... all the things!

 

Hillary  

I feel like you should be empowered to be as respectful, like to be mirroring respect, right? So if someone is being completely disrespectful and talking down to you, that's different than someone coming to have a conversation with you, like, "This is my opinion. These are the reasons why I'm recommending this." You know, that's a different story than, walking in and saying, "Hey, you're going to have a cesarean because it's 4pm and I have a tee time."  I literally never heard that phrase uttered by a physician before. Never.

 

Sara  

Mutual respect, and I think that that goes along with being intentional about who you place in authority as an authority figure. No matter how you position yourself. In some ways, whoever you choose as your care provider is going to have some level of authority at some point during your birth experience. And so, you want there to be that level of mutual respect that, "Wow, my care provider respects and honors my authority as the one with the baby in my body, with the intuition to know the best choices for this circumstance, and with the power to and the ability to birth this baby." And not choosing somebody who doesn't respect your position as somebody bringing life into the world, somebody, you know, a care provider that sees you more as a patient who's a passive recipient of care, that's not going to be able to have that mutual level of respect. And really not going to be an empowering position for either person.

 

Hillary  

I really loved how you incorporated all three resources into that.

 

Sara  

Oh, well, there you go! That was my concluding. 

 

Hillary  

I think that was fantastic! Uh, Sara? 

 

Sara  

Yes, Hillary?

 

Hillary  

Are you ready for my silly question? 

 

Sara  

I'm ready for your silly question. 

 

Hillary  

Have you seen the BFG or read the BFG?

 

Sara  

I have read it. I have not seen it.

 

Hillary  

This has inspired the question that I chose, so that's your warning. 

 

Sara  

I'm a little scared.

 

Hillary  

Would you rather burp bubbles or fart green fumes?

 

Sara  

Burp bubbles!! Bubbles are magical.

 

Hillary  

Agreed. How fun would it be to just be drinking soda all day and have little kids follow you around the zoo while you burped bubbles?

 

Sara  

I mean, like, I hope that I could do it kind of politely 

 

Hillary  

Oh see and I was imagining you, like, leading a parade while you're burping out bubbles!

 

Sara  

Well, either way, I still would prefer the bubbles. 

 

Hillary  

I would be so proud if I could burp bubbles. Green fumes not so much.  It would be a little more embarrassing.

 

Hillary  

I really appreciate you taking the time, Sara, I know that we're in different time zones, and you only let me fangirl once so far when we met in person.  I really, really appreciate you taking the time. Especially because I know that your podcast is typically much shorter than ours, because we are chatty. Not that you're not chatty, but

 

Sara  

I like to be chatty. I just restrict sometimes.

 

Hillary  

I love it. I think that's fantastic.

 

Sara  

Well, thank you. Thanks for chatting with me. I appreciate your perspective. And, what are you laughing about?

 

Hillary  

I was like, "Oh, I have a perspective!"

 

Sara  

Yeah! Your medical anthropology perspective, you pulled that hat out two or three times.

 

Hillary  

I honestly I never take it off. I got to interview one of my grad school professors for the podcast and I think it was after we were finished. She was like, "You're doing such a great job using your PhD!" And I was like, "Aw, that was maybe the best compliment I ever got." So, I just, it never turns off. That's all right. Robin did get upset. Robin got upset because I, we were in Las Vegas together and she said, "Do you ever turn the anthropologist off?" Like, no, not really. Sorry

 

Sara  

I like it. Keep it coming. 

 

Hillary  

Thanks Sara!

 

Sara  

Thank you, Hillary.

Further episodes of Birth Words: Language For a Better Birth

Further podcasts by Sara Pixton

Website of Sara Pixton