When Grief Doesn't Move In Stages - a podcast by WNYC Studios

Radiolabproducer Rachael Cusick's mother died when Rachael was six years old. Her grandmother, Marilyn Ryland, stepped in as a parental figure for Rachael, and while they didn't talk directly about grief together, Marilyn says, "it was always in the room." 

I talked with Rachael and Marilyn together, in this special collaboration withRadiolab. For the past year, Rachael has been reporting a piece forRadiolababout psychiatrist Elisabeth Kübler-Ross and her "five stages of grief"—a model of neat progression through loss that Rachael quickly grew frustrated with when she was younger. In "The Queen of Dying," Rachael's newRadiolabepisode, we learn about how those stages actually came about, and about the woman who created them.

As Rachael was working on that piece, she also learned that her grandmother, Marilyn, had been diagnosed with cancer.I talk to Rachael and Marilyn together about losing Rachael's mom, and about the stages of grief—and dying.

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Listen to Rachael's companionRadiolabepisode about the story and legacy of Elisabeth Kübler-Rosshere. And read a Modern Love essay that Rachael wrote for The New York Times about her relationship with her grandmother, and loss,here. 

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