Frankenstein - Episode #4 - Victor and the Monster argue the nature of man to a frightful conclusion! - a podcast by Christy and Garry Shriver

Frankenstein - Episode #4 - Victor and the Monster argue the nature of man to a frightful conclusion!

 

Hi, My name is Christy Shriver.

 

And I’m Garry Shriver, and this is the How to love lit Podcast.  Today we finish our discussion over mary shelley’s classic horror tale- Frankenstein.  This is the fourth and final episode in this discussion- and we certainly have been all over the place in terms of the range of ideas she’s incorporated- and looking at  my notes, we’re stretching even farther today.  In episode one, we primarily discussed Mary Shelley, her life and the influences that help create the context for the novel.  In episode 2, we go through the letters that precede chapter one and set up the narrative structure, in fact we discuss the three narratives that help create this unusual frame story structure.  We discuss the setting of Geneva and one its favorite sons, Jean Jacques Rosseau- whose ideas weigh heavily in this book.  We also talk about the science of the day, galvanism and the current events that were affecting everyone’s understanding of electricity, then at the end of the episode we discussed the creation of the monster itself and Victor’s bizarre reaction to what he had made.  Last week, we got around to exploring the feminist criticism that has always circulated and evolved greatly since people understood this famous novel was written by a woman.  We laid out the most common highlights as far as what critics have brought out over the years as to the gender-politics surrounding the novel- then we arrived at third narrative where the monster finally gets a voice.  We discuss, albeit not as deeply as we would have liked, some of the broad ideas Shelley brings out through the monster’s experiences, the family he stalks and the books he reads. We finally land at Milton’s  Paradise Lost, and how the monster interprets his existence through this theological/social lens.  We discuss how the monster sees himself as a victim- a person born good- desiring good and capable of great good who has turned evil out of necessity. We see that he views himself as Adam- and Victor as God.  But then at the end we see that the monster also identifies with Satan- he sees himself capable of great revenge, but not just revenge- great evil.  And I think that’s where we left off.

 

Well, you left out only one thing- all of this was a set up on the monster’s part.  He’s not just Satan in his capacity for great evil- he’s also capable of great seduction- this entire monologue served only one purpose- he wanted something.  He’s willing to promise all sorts of things to get it but he wants something.

 

Oh yes- he does.  He wants Victor to make him a female monster, a companion. 

 

Yes- and it is here in chapter 17- where we are faced with the Rousseau-question again as to the nature of man.  Who’s good?  Are we all good? Are we not?  Is the monster good?  Is Victor good?  And Shelley has not made it easy for us?  Not even to decide what constitutes a good person?  If you can make a person good are they naturally good? Can you make them evil? And if they’re evil- can you change them to good? Is there fluidity between the two? Of course, she creates for us an array of perfect people- Every single person in Victor’s world is good; Elizabeth, his mother, his father, Clerval, Justine- all perfect.  But that’s not really who we’re interested- they’re too good to be real, not designed to be relatable really.  We’re really talking about the narrators, even Walton is at the heart of the thematic discussion but mainly- Victor and his monster.  Victor was raised in this perfect Garden of Eden like place- and in a sense- usurps the power of God and creates life.  He makes a creature- but does he make a good creature? Is even Victor for all of his perfect upbringing, is he actually good to begin with? 

 

And it’s a good question- and probably all of us have asked ourselves about ourselves.  Are we good and are we making good things with our lives?  It’s a great place for all of us to find ourselves in the story.

 

For sure then we add that idea we find in the title- of this play is Frankenstein- a Modern Prometheus- what did Prometheus do- he defied Zeus- he defied god- after he made man- he defied god when he stole fire at great personal cost, but he did it for man- he seemed to see himself as having a responsibility towards man and thus creates civilization- this is basically what the monster is asking Victor to do by creating a woman- take some responsibility.  And his argument is based on a concept of justice- he’s going to say- you ethically MUST do this to be a good person.  You OWE it to me.

 

And I can imagine most readers of this book, at this point, totally agree with this line of reasoning.  And in fact- most of us look at good vs. bad as either/or virtues that define people’s essence.  If you are a good person, then you are not a bad person- if you’re bad you’re not good.  So, you find yourself asking for the rest of the book- is Victor or isn’t he a good person.  Is the monster evil or isn’t he?  But then you have this other layer of complexity- independent of you’re good or evil- do you have rights?  Of course, our American legal system, would say that you do.  All of us have human rights.  So, if we’re going to look at the monster as human, and that’s another question, but if we agree just for the moment that the monster has even the most basic of human rights- Surely he is owed something- surely he is owed the most basic of human rights- fellowship into the community of man.  Human morality or our idea of reciprocity demands something here.  Doesn’t he deserve something for being alive?  As Shelley brings out on the title page- he didn’t ask for life.  It was given to him against his will.   And the language the monster uses here is all about right and wrong.  He says, “I demand it of you as a right which you must not refuse me.” 

 

True- and perhaps this is why Shelley says it’s a ‘modern Prometheus” and not just Prometheus- Prometheus definitely saw himself as having an obligation to humans.  He steals fire, he creates civilization- he actually sacrifices himself completely for humanity- but it doesn’t seem that our modern Prometheus really will view himself with that kind of responsibility towards his created being- and really never has.  He flat out says, “I do refuse it…. I will never consent.   So the qualifying word is modern- are modern people different?  And are they right?

 

Well  the creature has an opinion about that.  He comes back with the argument, “you are wrong..I am malicious BECAUSE I am miserable…read to the end of the page”

 

And so the monster appears to land at a threat- if you want to see it that way.  Or perhaps you can see it as a mere consequence for the total selfishness of the modern Prometheus- this will be the natural consequence of this irresponsible action. 

 

Quite possibly- and what I find fascinating is that irresponsibility really was Victor Frankenstein’s hallmark from the beginning of this entire project.  If you were to pay attention to the details of when he created the monster- the text says that he created him to be so big because he found it too tedious to make things small.  It was extra work to worry about the details- which of course obviously it is.  It was slowing the process and he wanted to hurry up and make his human so he go have the fun part of giving it life.  That’s really not being responsible for life- or at least thinking about what you’re doing.  And here after Frankenstein hears this entire tale, he considers the reasonableness of this argument and says, ‘I felt that there was some justice in it” but then later on he looks at him, and he says, “but when I looked upon him, when I saw the filty mass that moved and talked, my heart sickenened and my feelings were altered to those of horror and hatred.  I tried to stifle these sensations: I thought that as I could not sympathize with him; I had no right to withhold him the small portion of happiness which was yet in my power to bestow”- he agrees to the request, but he does not sympathize- there is not a shred of compassion- and the reader is left with another question- how is this possible- how can you not have feelings when this creature that you made- who goes around not even killing animals- he’s a vegetarian for goodness sake- tells you that all he wants is to not be alone- who’s the monster here?  Who’s good and who’s evil?

 

Oh dear- and you’ve landed at that confusing place where Shelley will never let you find your feet not even at the end of the novel.  What most students want to do is go back and forth- trying to decide – first we want to see that the monster is good- he does good things here. He’s saved a person there.  He’s helped a family.  But then we have to vascillate to the opposite position.  He’s evil.  He kills people.  But maybe he doesn’t want to kill people- but is that true?  Then why do it/. It seems he very much wants to kill people?  So you can say, but he wants to kill people because Victor hurt him first? Then you have to ask, is that a thing- can you just say someone else made you evil?  Do the rules of the universe grant us that?

 

 Not everyone in the world becomes evil because they are mistreated, btw.  I’d say not even the majority.  There are lots of people that have experienced extreme suffering and did not turn into a monster.  Not even in this story is that true.  Mary Shelley cleverly makes Justine, the monster’s second victim, a victim herself of abuse by her own mother- and she doesn’t choose evil.  

 

 But let’s say you excuse the monster, and totally say it’s not his fault for killing Victor and setting up Justine then you drop all that on victor- it’s Victor’s fault.  And if you land there- is Victor evil?

 

Good question- and by the end of chapter 17, Victor is again in utter despair.  He weeps and he has suicidal thoughts.  He apparently walks all the way down the glacier back to Geneva and into his dad’s house looking like a crazy person.  But still he never tells a soul what is happening.

 

Which brings us to the final big thematic ideas that I really want to introduce as we talk about this book- and I already introduced them in episode 1- but we are really going to see them expressed in so many different ways in the rest of the book; the ideas of remorse, secrecy and isolation- and the relationship between the three.  What do you think is going on here?  Why is he so sad? Is this remorse?  Why won’t he tell his family?  What is the result of him isolating himself further and further away from those he loves?

 

We’ll have to figure out what you say in response to this question

 

Shelley- makes a huge point- in fact- it may be the only point- of the next chapter to highlight this isolation inside of Victor- instead of marrying Elizabeth and going towards a place of human intimacy- he runs away to England. His father, in an attempt to perhaps keep his son from going crazy, recruits Clerval to go with him- and when we see these two guys side by side- we are very much aware that being by yourself and being isolated are not the same thing.  Clerval- our almost perfect human counterpart- is always happy.  He gets out by himself  a lot actually- often in nature- alone- but he is never once described as  sad or lonely at all.  He drinks in the beautiful English scenery.   He makes friends.  He adores everything and everyone.  For Victor, he says, “Company was irksome to me.’  He hates people.  They visit all these beautiful places and Clerval just soaks it all up.  Meanwhile Victor starts to worry about making the monster.  It had been a long time since their mountain chat, so he decides to ditch Clerval.

 

I do want to point out that Shelley clearly knows her geography.  She has these two go everywhere gives very detailed descriptions of the places they visit and how they get from place to place.  They travel all over until Victor finally isolates himself on what he calls “one of the remotest of the Orkney’s.”  And quite honestly, since i’ve never been to Scotland, I wanted to look up where this was and see what exactly was drawing Shelley to this particular spot.  And I have to admit, this is a  pretty impressive setting choice.  First of all, the Orkney’s is not just one thing- it’s an archipelago but it also contains a group of 70 islands, and of those only 20 are inhabited.  The largest called ‘the mainland’ is a little over 200 sq. miles.  It is off the north coast of Scotland- and today if you look at the pictures it’s absolutely stunning full of cliffs and rock features-and honestly is a honeymoon destination with apparently lots of incredibly fresh good food.

 

Well, I’m not sure it was a tourist destination in the 1700s- ha!!  But there are things about this spot that make it as you say, an impressive choice- first of all- it’s in the north, it’s cold, it’s windy, there are lots of waves, fog, rain- all the things that make for a scary horror tale.- especially if you need a spot to make a monster.  But, really more important than that- if there is anything more important than being in a scary place to create another monster- what Shelley has done here is totally isolate Victor from anyone and everyone- not just emotionally but literally physically.  He has run away to an extremely remote place- and this place is somewhat challenging physically. This setting symbolizes Victor’s total aloneness- except ironically he’s not alone- he’s alone with the monster.   And here we see the metaphor- monster as secret kind of really takes on a very very vivid image that a lot of us can relate to.  It’s always with us, but horrible and hideous.

 

I do think we can relate to this- and we can understand how he feels- and again, I know I keep saying this- but this is what impresses me so much with Mary Shelley’s age- how does she do this at 18?  Psychologists tell us that we understand the world through stories.  It’s how we orientate ourselves and are able to kind of sort out our decisions.  We think it’s by deductive reasoning or lining up pros and cons, but it’s not- we see the world as stories.   Let’s just look at this book- as a way of kind of fleshing this idea out- one way to see what I’m talking about it looking at this book as a framework to understanding addiction- which I know many people have done and written extensively about.     In fact, and we really don’t have time to go far down this path but it’s a very interesting- especially in a context where addiction is a contemporary cultural hot topic.  So, at this time in history in England, as well as America, drug use, especially in the crowd that Shelley ran with was a huge thing- Lord Byron used them, her husband was a drug user- everyone in the arts crowd was- even Charles Dickens.-  Drugs were not illegal nor hardly taboo- they were common and until 1868 you could get them anywhere  No one really knew about drug addiction- it was not a thing.

 

HA! Ironically, it’s in the book- in the next chapter we’re even going to see Victor in just a little bit take laudaman- the drug of choice of that day to kind of help his anxiety after Clerval’s death

 

Well, if you want to look at the book through this lens , and it’s a very modern way of looking at the book, what  we see beautifully illustrated is the isolating effects a person’s addiction can have and the sheer power of the secret one is forced to create.  In Victor’s case, and just pretend that the monster represents an addiction, he keeps his addiction secret at all costs- even though it causes him to lose family members- he holds on to his secret- let’s people die, let’s people take blame, but all the time feeling more and more responsible, more and more trapped, more and more alone, bargaining with the addiction- but ultimately finding himself in a place- where he is absolutely alone…except with the addiction.  I think this is one of those places, where readers people can really relate with Shelley.  Addiction is just one example, but it's a good one.  There are things, secrets, that we keep, we hate ourselves for keeping them, but we have reasons we can’t let go of, and we watch ourselves being destroyed by some monster.

 

Funny you should bring that up because one thing I have played around with talking about but could never figure out where to put it into the conversation is Mary Shelley’s constant quoting from the poem called the Rime of the Ancient Mariner- which was written by another romantic poet named Samuel Coleridge who really struggled with addiction and who wrote this poem, in part, some have argued about the isolating feelings caused by his addiction.  I don’t want to go down that rabbit trail, but this poem It’s quoted in the narrative from the monster, but in several other places all the way to the end of the book- and if you are a poor unfortunate soul that is tasked with writing a paper on this book, looking at this poem and the connection between it and the book, would be a great one.  Anyway, we need to get back on track.

 

By chapter 20, it’s been three years since Victor made the first monster and now he’s about to make the second- except he doesn’t. And I’m going to resist the temptation to get back into gender politics- but it’s a natural place to do so because he’s reasoning for not making the woman is because of the power of reproduction. He doesn’t want to make a ‘race of devils”.

 

Well, gender-politics aside- that’s fair enough.  Don’t you think?

 

For sure, and it’s about time he started thinking about possible ramifications of his actions.  It seems, when he thinks of the idea of making a woman- he starts to have all these thoughts, that he didn’t have the first time around.  The monster has promised to be good, but what if the woman monster doesn’t want to be good? Who’s going to control her? He goes down this slippery slope to finally say- I could be responsible for the end of the human race. 

 

And with that thought in his mind, he looks up and there he is- the monster- grinning- but what he also sees beyond the smile frightens him more, he sees malice and treachery.  So he makes a decision, an emotional one, but a definitive one- he tears up the girl right before the monster’s eyes.

 

And that is not well-received.

 

No- not at all- beyond all the howling- then coming back and engaging in an intellectual tangle- the monster ends with some of the famous phrases people remember from this book, Do you want to read them.

 

You can blast my other passions; but revenge remains- revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die; but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery.  Beware, for I am fearless, and therefore powerful!  I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom.  Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”  And then finally he ends with these foreboding lines, ‘It is well I go.  But remember, I shall be with you on your wedding night.”

 

Of course, every smart reader who reads these lines will suspect various scenarios as to what the monster could mean- but not Victor- he’s only open to a single interpretation of this phrase.  He says this, ‘In that hour I should die and at once satisfy and extinguish his malice.  The prospect did not move me to fear; yet when I thought of my beloved Elizabeth, of her tears and endless sorry when she should find her lover so barbarously snatched from her- tears, the first I had shed for months, steamed from my eyes and I resolved not to fall before my enemy without a bitter struggle.”  So, he cries over his own death- except it’s hard to know if he really thinks he’s going to die.  I really don’t see him ever act afraid of the monster. He’s actually even physically attacks him a couple of times. 

 

Well, clearly he should be afraid- but obviously not for himself.  But getting back to isolation for a minute and revenge- I think this is another place in the book where we see a lot of Mary Shelley’s own possible emotions coming through.  I can imagine most of us have been in a place where we felt so so angry at a person, so so alone in the world that we wanted to act out in this way, the line “you shall repent of the injuries you inflict” cuts at the heart of we all feel when we’ve been deeply betrayed and all we want to do is lash back, except most of us don’t actually act out these impulses.

 

And an anonymous 8 foot monster I guess is a good fantasy- standing at a much inferior 5 feet one half inch- I can attest to that, I suppose.  Anyway, Victor, at this place tosses the girl monster body parts into the ocean and somehow manages to fall asleep in a boat and roll across the waterway to Ireland- another setting in this book.

 

And I find Ireland, again to be a very interesting choice.  Of course, we know Shelley spent time in Scotland, so that makes sense, but Ireland brings in another historical angle that’s worth a sidebar.

 

Why do you say that?  I think it’s great that the Irish are the only ones that don’t fall head over heals in love with Victor- in fact, they slap his rear in jail- and ironically in one way of looking at it- he’s as guilty as they say he is.

 

True, but what’s interesting to me about this choice of setting is the obvious political antagonism that existed during this time period between the British and the Irish.  At this time,  Ireland was a British colony- and you know where there is colonization there is resentment towards the colonizers and racism towards the people of the colony- and this is no exception.  During Shelley’s lifetime- there was extreme prejudice against the Irish from the British.  In fact, and this is just horrible the term “Irish Frankenstein” is actually a term.  If you google it, you’ll send a large quantity of political cartoons portraying Irish people as loafs, stupid, uncultured, backwards, lower level sometimes even psychopathic people- by modern standards we find it truly appalling and today you would NEVER see anything like that in commercial media. 

 

So, in a sense, I guess you can say, that with Shelley sending Victor to Ireland, she’s symbolically sending into the vast Netherlands of exile- physically as well as emotionally- to live with the undesirables- outside of fashionable or even good society. 

 

I think an English person at that time period, might see it that way.  They would certainly say he’s fallen from the great heights of a polished fancy medical school to being in jail by people they find beneath them. 

 

And of course, by now, he’s far from home, his best friend is dead, his brother and his brother’s nanny is dead.  His career is basically dead, or so it seems.  This is the first time, we really see Victor exposed to any consequences of an outside nature- I guess showing that sooner or later- secret or not- you cannot run from the consequences of a lie!!  And he is living a lie.  And of course, this is the place in the book, upon leaving Ireland that we see Victor resorting to drugs to try to get to sleep- an unnatural reality- even farther away yet.  Except even after taking a double portion of laudaman, he cannot run away- instead of a drug induced sleep- he experiences a drug induced nightmare where he feels the monster strangling HIM.

 

If you’re wondering where we are in the book, it’s in chapter 22, where we see Victor’s father and Victor traveling back to Geneva through Paris- and again we get to hear a different voice- we get to hear the voice of Elizabeth as she basically confronts Victor for his lack of romantic interest in her- basically saying, it’s okay.  If you have another love interest, it’s fine, just let me know.  And it’s a letter of true love because she really wants his best- although she feels zero reciprocity from him.  As with all of his relationships, especially at this point, he takes but does he cannot give back far beyond when it was obvious she shouldn’t and because of that decision on he part, she will suffer extreme consequences. 

 

Of course, there are obvious social reasons, Shelley makes sure to make obvious for Elizabeth’s choice here.  And, I think even a 18th century reader would see the irony inherent in this letter.  There is no way not to be entirely sympathetic for Elizabeth at this point.  Even Victor’s father finds him deranged. 

 

 

  And here if we look at the two main characters- we have to ask ourselves- the monster is obviously bad because he hurts peple, but Viftor hurts people to even if it is covert and less obvious?  Are they more similar than would initially appear?

 

Well, that’s a great question- and what happens next in the book absolutely heightenes that.  After they return to Geneva, Victor and Elizabeth marry, although he does express the fact that she last lost some of her beauty (the scmuck)- they marry, he promises he’ll tell her his “secret” the day after their wedding, and then they take off across the lake- and we’re back into Gothic world.  It’s dark and of course- here comes the rain.  They get to their spot, Victor leaves Elizabeth alone to walk around up and down the house- supposedly looking out for the monster, but I find myself believing him less and less by this point in the book- but regardless he hears a “shrill and dreadful scream” and of course she’s dead, and the grasp of the monters’ grasp is on her neck.  What’s even more interesting is that the monster sticks around.  He watches Victor, grins at Victor and points to the dead body.

 

And of course, now, after all these people die, Victor finally feels the surge of hate and revenge that the monster has been describing for a long time now.  We see Victor speak of revenge and we see Victor finally take some initiative.  He goes to the magistrate and wants to hunt the monster down.  This is something we haven’t seen at all, regarding any of the other deaths.

 

That’s true, and I find that really hard to understand?  Why now?  He doesn’t seem to love Elixabeth any more than anyone else that died.  What’s the difference?

 

I can speculate, but it seems like the Victor finally breaks.  If you want to say like father like son- the monster is like Victor, except didn’t have any of the social structure, culturally or emotionally to contain himself- so he broke pretty much immediately – although not immediately= but Victor is broken and we see him sound a lot like the monster.  He speaks of despair and then rage- and these have been the controlling emotions of the monster from the beginning. Listen to these quotes and these are not from the monster, they’re from Victor, “Let the cursed and hellish monster drink deep of agony; let him feel the despair that now torments me.’ 

 

And of course we end the novel with these two alone in the world.  Victor’s father dies of heartbreak.  Victor’s going to leave again- leave his  only surviving brother- he can’t let the obsession go- he ventures out pursuing the monster for months- and this gets quite unbelievable- but that’s okay- they get their dog sleds and we end up where we began- in the north pole.  And we’re back to Walton’s letters to his sister.    It’s kind of strange dynamic- the reader is somewhat pushed out of the narrative.  We’re pushed farther away from the action.  We’re moving back and been given the freedom to look at these two characters with a little more distance, more objectivity- and I think you’re right- we do sort of see them as kind of, if not the same person, two characters that are very very similar- even if one is actually a serial killer- and like Walton, we ask ourselves.  Ugh- how close am I into making a monster?  How close and I into making myself a monster?

 

I really think, if I had to guess, that is what makes Frankenstein so popular from generation to generation- in spite of the science being outdated.  In spite of the language being so hard to read.  Mary Shelley has shown us, that like it or not, perhaps there is no clear cut difference between a good person and a bad person.  She’s played around with our minds this whole book as we’ve tried to decide who is a good person and who is a bad person- and the answer she gives us is yes= and you’re it.  You are capable of good; you are also capable of evil, and perhaps you are even capable of making someone else evil.

 

I think so, and likewise, she honestly expresses how it feels to be that person who is rejected.  And many of us know how that feels.  How does it feel to be cruelly neglected, pushed away, stolen from in deep and personal ways.  The pain of the monster is one of the strongest sentiments in the book- and we understand it.  What I find interesting in the way she ends the book, is that in some ways- the monster doesn’t hate Victor.  He resents him, but he doesn’t hate him.  He follows him, he allows Victor to follow him, he maintains the connection until the very end and it is only after Victor dies that he reaches again to connect to another human being- and his connection this time to Walton is not to murder anyone.

 

No, It is to express this last emotion of a book that is full of emotion and the final emotion is remorse.  Let’s read these final pages- page 195. 

 

 The monster expresses deep remorse over what he has done and promises to kill himself.  Then he jumps out of the window and away he goes.  Do you think he really kills himself?

 

Ha!  That’s a good question and Mary Shelley won’t answer for us.  I guess it wouldn’t be horror if the monster couldn’t at any time come through our window on a cold and stormy night- but honestly, I’m left with the feeling that he is going to kill himself.

 

Me too- because it’s sad.  This is a book entirely devoid of redemption- every one loses- well, maybe not everyone- Walton is the last man standing. 

 

Yes- and I think he is redeemed- he, like us the readers, takes a good look at this life, applies the lesson of Frankenstein, and says- I’m going home.

 

And on that note, I think we can finally leave Victor and Mary.  Mary is sending us home- whatever that means to us- home to our families, home to forgiveness, home to a more balanced life between work and family, home away from personal ambition- I guess it’s open ended- with only one point of agreement- I don’t want to be that guy or …those guys- the monsters Frankenstein!!!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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