Romeo&Juliet - Episode 3 - From Comedy To Tragedy! - a podcast by Christy and Garry Shriver

Romeo & Juliet - Episode 3 - From Comedy To Tragedy!

 

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Hi- I’m Christy Shriver.  We’re here to talk about books that changed the world and change us!

 

Hi, I’m Garry Shriver, and this is the How to Love Lit Podcast.  Today we begin our third episode on Shakespeare’s iconic Romeo and Juliet.  Week one, we discussed, albeit briefly- Shakespeare’s life.  Then we began to explore this idea of what makes something tragic.  You proposed that in a tragedy the protagonist must be noble. In a sense, he or she must be better than us- and undeserving of the fate he or she has suffered the concept of fate like we saw in Oedipus or Antigone.  But Romeo and Juliet are different they are not traditionally classic heroes- they are not noble leaders fighting mythical beasts or defying kings.  You can’t imagine Chris Hemsworth who we all imagine holding Thor’s hammer playing a character like Romeo.  And in a similar fashion- it is questionable that Romeo and Juliet’s death is truly decided by fate. They are teenagers making decisions in ways you’d expect teenagers to make. You pointed out that half of this play is very comedic mostly for that reason- and in comedy we laugh because we think we’re better than the fools we’re watching-really the parts we’ve read so far have mostly been comedic.  The nurse is funny; Romeo is as love struck as any 14 year old high school freshman, his friends are like any friend group you’d find at a Sonic in Memphis.  In fact, there is something loveable and maybe even High School musical-like in how the first half of this play is constructed.

 

That’s very true- and since you mention high school musical- I can almost see Romeo as a young Zac Efron reciting poetry to Vanessa Hudgens- that would have a great remake!  The only thing dark in the first half of this play is all the foreshadowing about death- even the fight scene is fun and lively and definitely not deadly- everyone walks away with a scolding- again not unlike you’d expect the principal from a Disney special to do.   But today we will see a darker turn in the play because it is in Act 3 when Romeo kills Tybalt and things go awry.  Just a little literary review, as you recall from previous episodes- specifically if you listened to the series on Lord of the Flies, a man named Freytag created a diagram to illustrate how drama is traditionally structured- some call it fraytag’s pyramid, others freytag’s triangle- most Americans just call it the plot diagram- anyway- he claims that Shakespearean drama has the hero meet his adversary in the third act- it is a turning point- the climax- that moment from which the hero can no longer retreat.  It often reveals a hero’s weakness or weaknesses- and every bit of this we will see today as we hope to trace this story all the way through the climax.   By the end of Scene 1 of Act 3, there is no more musical feel; there is no more levity.  But before we get to that turning point; there is more to see and pay attention to in the first two acts that is worth thinking about. 

 

True and to set it up- last week we entered, albeit slightly, into the area of politics which is not something we think about when discussing Romeo and Juliet- but you contend it is the politics that creates the tragedy, at least in part.   The basic argument of last week’s episode is that in Verona- the adults who live there are rotten, and the town itself is the impetus for the tragedy.  It is full of petty people, where as you said, adults don’t take seriously their roles as leaders.  They do not develop a culture of building, but instead students are indulged and engaged  in idleness- of course any school teacher will tell you- teenagers with nothing to do – is always a recipe for disaster.

 

  We noticed that the Prince is indulgent- he doesn’t have the backbone to rein in anybody. He’s just not a strong person. It’s a rich comfortable place and so a feud easily perpetuates for something that feels petty and meaningless…so much so that Mercutio, the Prince’s nephew, feels no hesitation in talking his best friend, Romeo Montague,into  crashing a party at the house of some supposed sworn enemy.

 

 It doesn’t seem that anyone is thinking about murder and danger.  Sure they might get in trouble- but that risk elevates the element of fun,  a little drama in a somewhat otherwise boring place.   Even when Mr. Capulet sees Romeo  there, he calls him a fine young man, and tells Tybalt to leave him alone.  Romeo isn’t even asked to leave.  I’d say there are people in Memphis who have worse feuds than this. 

 

That is it exactly- Verona is a very unserious place in this play.  And Tybalt isn’t mad about anything – he’s just an angry and bitter person- a bad person looking for trouble.  He gets mad because he sees  Romeo is getting away with something- the same way an Auburn fan is mad when an Alabama fan puts red dye in a fountain on campus-  (For those of you outside the US, there is no place in the US where American football is taken more seriously than in the great state of Alabama- if you want to talk about feuds- this is a feud that involves millions of people every year and from time to time gets out of hand Verona-style.  Garry tell the story  about the famous Toomer Tree poisoning incident a few years back.- and you’ll see what I mean about feuds-

 

Well, Auburn and Alabama are two universities in the same state- if you go down there, everyone in the state has been raised to love one and hate the other.  Every year they play each other, now Alabama and Auburn also have two of the greatest football programs in the entire nation, so the Iron Bowl- the annual game where they play each other as it is incredibly tense.  Well, in 2010, there was a famous incident when an older gentleman (not even a student) – but an Alabama fan, snuck onto the campus and famously poisoned some renowned iconic hundred year old Oak Trees on the edge of Auburn’s campus after Alabama lost the football game.  Well, the state blew up!!  The man, who’s name was Harvey Updyke, was sentenced to three years in prison and a fine of $800,000- and not unlike what happens to Romeo (for a spoiler) He was banished from Auburn and actually lived out his life in the state of Louisiana.

 

Indeed and on that note, I know of several Alabama parents who would consider banishing their son or daughter if they married someone from the opposing university.  But, this is the feel of Act 1- where we leave the world of feuds and  transition into the private world of teenagers.  And of course it’s the language of love that has become so memorable over the centuries, such fun word play- these lines are famous for being beautiful and complex.  “Did my heart love til now?  “I never saw true beauty til this night.”  “What’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”   Obviously teenagers don’t talk like this.  Although, I will say, I did get a very sappy love poem written by a boy in the sixth grade.

 

Oh you did, pray do tell-

 

Well, I can’t remember his name, he wasn’t in my class, but he had drawn a unicorn with a rainbow on tissue paper and had put baby powder between this piece of tissue paper and another piece of tissue paper, and had glued them together so it smelled really nice.  He said something about me being as beautiful as the rainbow.

 

And how did you react-

 

Well, I’m embarrassed to say, I was not brave like Juliet.  I was embarrassed, my friends laughed at me, I hid the letter, ran away and never talked to the boy- ever.  Nothing as poetic as what we see here. 

 

HAHAHA- true love which lends me to bring up a difference between your youth and youth during Shakespeare’s day which isn’t at all what you’re describing.  Shakespeare’s lines between these two is very progressive here- fathers in that audience would not approve of a daughter like Juliet.  Students, especially girls, were treated very strictly, they were not given a lot of freedom in terms of dating- it’s interesting here that Shakespeare draws a world where teenagers are glamorized for basically living a life of secrets, lies, confessions in the dark- I have no way of knowing, but I wonder if this wasn’t a fantasy for a lot of young adults during that day, just like it is today.  In this play, these characters defy the expectations of their parents, their community, their cultural heritage to define themselves as lovers- even if just to themselves.  In the world of arranged marriages- even today- this is simply taboo.

 

And therein lies the universality of the story- the beautiful lines that have charmed boys and girls for centuries. The fantasy that I don’t have to marry some stodgy pre-determined oaf and live out my days fantasizing over the latest sale at Kroger over pot roast.  I can dream of a sexy love-struck beautiful man coming to my window and comparing me to stars and moons!

 

 We ended reading those famous lines last week and if you didn’t catch them, go back and relisten- they really are worth hearing over and over again, this week we begin by tearing down that image and putting a different spin on this very famous passage.  The feminist interpretation of this scene is one of my favorites- There are those feminists who contend that what we are watching in this famous passage, all this loving discourse between Romeo and Juliet, is Juliet seeing herself as an independent person and exerting power over her own life circumstances the only way she knew how- creating for herself an escape route- away from the arranged marriage with Paris.  If you remember, right before that dance, her mother is trying to sell this old rich guy-  Paris- even the nurse chimes in and calls him a man of wax.  Juliet is not interested, and goes into that party in a scary place- her future with this old man- and remember Shakespeare has done nothing but emphasize she’s 13- now this 13 year old- low and behold, she finds a beautiful boy who is charming- and there it is- all she has to do is reel him in- Of course, women seducing men isn’t new, that’s not even a new plot line, but the WAY Juliet seduces Romeo isn’t traditional nor is Shakespeare’s characterization of Juliet traditional.

And I referenced this last week, look how strong Juliet is when she’s talking to Romeo- she is taking the unusual approach of matching Romeo line by line- she is his intellectual equal at every point- none of this – oh Romeo you’re so strong and intelligent, so much stronger than me- none of that nauseating song and dance annoying girls are famous for.

 

Well, of course, it seems to work because that same night- he jumps the fence and recites poetry into the night.

 

Good point- the famous blazon- something that Shakespeare is famously making fun of – so let me explain- during the Elizabethan period- courtly love was all the rage- and there was a this trend called the blazon- so don’t think goofy trends just started with Tiktok-anyway guys would  would write these really far out comparisons of a girl’s body- they thought they were romantic and poetic- but they were cheesey.  Well, this is exactly the stunt Romeo is pulling off- he’s serenading Juliet with this hyperbolic cheesy description of Juliet- he’s going all Elizabethan tik-tok trend- so to speak- he’s made her a blazon.  She’s more fair, or beautiful than the sun.  Her vestal livery (well that’s her virginity) is sick and green- he’s telling her to cast that off!  Her eyes are brighter than stars her checks are shinier than stars- it’s hyperbolic- it’s cheesy.  It’s decidedly over the top- it’s repost worthy. 

 

Well, we’ve definitely been reposting it ever since- how many ninth graders memorize those lines.  And that’s all fun- but I want to point out something else- of course- I’m no director- but the way this is written is very ambiguous as to whether Juliet hears him or not- a director could easily have executed this either way. Maybe she doesn’t see him and he’s talking into the night - but it’s very easy to read this that maybe she DOES see him and pretends she doesn’t so she can spout off all these very forward lines- this girl is not running way.  Look at what she says to him- it’s very bold- and very unlike the traditional junior high move.  She says this “Deny thy father and refuse thy name!!”  Well, that’s bold and very untraditional- in normal marriages the girl gives up her name to take the man’s name- she’s inverting the wedding vows here-This is a very big ask of Juliet- You DROP YOUR NAME for me- if you dare.

 

Exactly- and notice There’s a lot of bird imagery that comes out of these two.  He talks about wings bringing him there.  He calls himself a pilot.  One time she calls herself a falconer, the person who tames falcons.   Here’s where I’m nesting…

 

Are you landing another pun there

 

 Yes- Juliet is setting him up to help her fly the coop!!!???

 

You could see it as Romeo’s in the clouds, and Juliet wants to join him there- and they can fly off together. 

 

Exactly- She needs help- real help. I’m not sure anything would frighten a 13 year old girl more than the prospects of being trapped sexually with an old geezer- honestly- look how different these two talk- Romeo is so romantic- he doesn’t have to be practical because of the nature of the world, Juliet does and its reflected in the language.  She asks him very down to earth questions.   she asks how he got in, she references the fact that he may die if he’s caught (although I doubt that)- but she’s bold and direct, “Dost thou love me?”  There is definitely another sexual reference- Romeo asks, “Will thou leave me so unsatisfied?” To which she responds not with an explanation about Paris, her parents and all that stuff that you’d think he might need to know- it’s sweet- let’s read it. 

Pg 74-75

 

Any thoughts?

 

Well, I think you’re trying to destroy the world’s greatest love scene.

 

Hahaha- maybe not- it’s just interesting- this is a very hot and steamy dialogue- it’s not sweet and innocent like Emily and George in Our Town- there is passion here, and I believe there is self-interest here.  And I don’t believe it’s just on the part of Juliet- this is a very different relationship between men and women being expressed here- Shakespeare has made these two teenagers very grown up in some ways and this is a negotiation of sorts.  We see sexual love, sexual power- I think it’s still love- but a love of a different sort- eros…to use the Greek word.

 

Well, I guess with that note, we fly off the balcony- enter into Scene 3 and meet the Friar- the other adult in this play- and I’m going to predict that you are not going to be kind to this man of the cloth.

 

Correct- you know me so well, darling!!  What is up with Friar Lawrence???!!!!  First of all this guy has zero spirituality.  We don’t encounter him at any time in prayer- he talks of nature’s virtues, man’s virtues- but nothing is centered around the attributes and concerns of the things of God.  He does call out Romeo for being a little hasty with wanting to marry Juliet one day after they’ve met- it’s kind of funny- let’s read those lines there a class

 

Page 83- lines Holy, Saint Francis- what a change is here!!

 

But his thinking is horrible.  He in no way thinks Romeo is in love. There is no indication he is looking out for the best interest of his flock.  He’s a terrible friar.  He’s willing to use these children to do something he thinks is for the good of the community- maybe there’s nobility there, but as a mama- I’m horrified.  And as a daughter of a minister, I will go so far as to say most ministers take the marriage sacrament as sacred before God- and I see to sanctity in this one. 

 

Well, it’s also a point to make that this plan would never have worked.  Shakespeare hints in the prologue what most of us would assume to be true, if these two had gotten away with getting married, the parents would have lost their minds with anger, probably have either kicked them out of the house or forced the Friar to annul the whole thing.  Nevermind all the talk of graves is more foreshadowing.

 

And yet that IS the plan- just get married and see what happens.  In Scene 4, we are back to Mercutio and Benvolio and the sexual innuendos and jesting..”Sure wit, follow me this jest now till thou has worn out thy pump, that when the single sole of it is worn, the jest may remain, after the wearing, solely singular…

This language is just silly, Shakespeare have the most fun with all the alliteration double-entendres’- the more you catch the funnier it is. 

 

It for sure takes a couple of reads to pick it up- but what we can’t help but pick up is the focal point between Romeo and Nurse- the wedding has been arranged.  ThIS AFTERNOON they will be married at Friar lawrence’s cell- and what is more important than that for Romeo is that the nurse is to get a rope ladder for him to get up that balcony and consummate this marriage.

 

And let me add two more points before we move to scene 5- the nurse is given another really famous line here- actually made famous today by the tv series “Pretty Little Liars” – “Two may keep counsel, putting one away.” 

 

Another great Shakesperean line people don’t know is Shakespeare’s.

 

The other point to note is back to my Juliet as feminist- listen to what the nurse tells Romeo about Juliet’s situation- she is(page 97 bottom of page)-

 

What does that line mean- Rosemary and Romeo “Doth not rosemary and Romeo begin both with a letter?

 

Ah- yes- and really honestly- I haven’t brought it up because we don’t have time to point every single instance of foreshadowing in this play but rosemary is a symbol of remembrance- it’s used at funerals (as well as weddings, honestly)-  Shakespeare almost at every point reminds us that these two are heading for disaster

Well- Scene 5 of Act 2 is a disaster but of a different sort- and all this talk of Juliet mature kind of dissipates.  She’s impatient, rude, demanding- this is a totally different Juliet than we’ve seen before.

 

I agree.  She’s panicked! She wants this and wants it NOW…which of course she gets in Act 2 Scene 6- they are married.  Let’s read this out. 

 

Romeo- “Amen, amen!  But come what sorry can, It cannot countervail the exchange of joy that one short minutes gives me in her sight, do thou but close our hands with holy words, then love-dovouring death do what he dare; it is enough I may but call her mine. 

 

To which

Friar Laurence responds These violent delights have violent ends..and in their triumph die, like fire and powder, which as they kiss consume.  The sweetest honey is loathsome in his own deliciousness, and in the taste confounds the appetite; therefore, love moderately.  Long love doth so; too swift arrives as tardy as too slow.”  Beyond the foreshadowing- he’s actually being totally correct here and some amazing imagery- like fire and powder- which as they kiss consume.  It’s a great analogy- fire and powder blow up together- even if you call it a kiss.  And then this idea that the sweetest honey is loathsome…not good but it’s bad..in its own deliciousness.

 

I agree- and this makes me all the more angry at him.  He knows better!!!! He’s willing to warn them all the way to the moment that Juliet walks in that room…and he allows them to blow themselves up.  There is no definition of parental love that supports this sort of indulgence..and it is certainly not holy….

 

I think one of the great comments Shakespeare makes, at least to me, is this idea of what it means to really love an adolescent.  In this play no one loves these kids- of course, we see it more with Juliet than with Romeo because Romeo’s parents are no where to be found- but look here- the role of the Friar is to protect them- and he in his self-serving cowardice fails…and this takes us into the Act- and as freytag tells us the turning point in the play.

 

We start with the best buddies- Mercutio and Benvolio are out, Tybalt has been hunting down Romeo and finally has found him.  Tybalt’s lines are short and aggressive…

 

Yes- and Romeo is embarrassing his friends- he’s obviously not interested in fighting, but the way he talks to Tybalt comes across as cowardly- at least to Mercutio, “I do protest I never injured thee. But love thee better than thou canst devise

 til thou shalt know the reason of my love.

 And so, good Capulet- which name I tender

 as dearly as mine own- be satisfied.”

 

Before we get into the fight part- I did want to point out something that I’ve basically been overlooking for the entire play because we just don’t have time to say everything there is to say about this play, but I want to point it out here because we see Shakespeare do something Shakespeare is SO famous for- his rhymes and sentence patterns support meaning through the beat of the language.  Remember when I told you almost this whole play is in unrhymed iambic pentameter- well, it is…but sometimes Shakespeare takes it up a notch and makes it rhyme- like when Romeo and Juliet are talking..that’s very romantic…well here, he’s going to do the opposite- let’s go back at those lines we just read- Romeo and Tybalt are talking in pentameter but Mercutio breaks the pattern- he’s breaking it up- Mercutio is speaking in nothing- he’s broken off from the love thing- “O calm, dishonorable, vile submission!” Alla Stoccado carries it away! Tybalt, you ratcatcher, will you walk?”  In a way Mercutio is interfering and Shakespeare is supporting that idea not with just what he does and what he says, but by the WAY the words sound..just something clever and one of the many reasons we’re all in awe of this man.

 

Remember, Mercutio is not a Capulet or a Montague- he’s related to the Prince- he really has no reason to fight- but he gets caught up in the moment- he and Tybalt fight it out until Tybalt stabs him- and again- so many directors have done this fight scene so differently- but one thing we know from Mercutio’s dying lines is that Romeo got between him and Tybalt giving Tybalt the edge – that allowed him to stab Mercutio.  

 

Exactly, and in Zafirelli’s movie portrayal he has Tybalt kind of looking surprised like he didn’t actually mean to kill him- which is a nice way to think of it.  Why would he want to randomly kill the King’s nephew?

Mercutio dies with this famous curse, “A plague o’both your houses!  I am sped.”  He knows he’s dead, but the fun-loving friend can’t die without one more final pun as we transition from comedy to tragedy, “’tis not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church door, but ‘tis enough, ‘twll serve.  Ask for me tomorrow, and you shall find me a grave man. It’s sad!!!  He’s the fun-loving friend who dreamed up Queen Mab. 

 

Yes- and Romeo thinks that too.  Another side of Romeo comes out – read lines Act 3 scene 1- lines 127.

 

Romeo runs away, Benvolio the last man standing has to give an account for what happened.   But before we discuss poor Benvolio trying to explain what has just happened, I do want to point out Romeo’s last line before exiting the scene.

 

“Oh, I am fortune’s fool!- that one?

 

Yes- it’s actually a quite famous line- he’s just stabbed Tybalt.  He lost his mind and stabbed Tybalt- and look at his line- it’s pure irony.  Is he fortune’s fool???  Well, most people would say no- you lost your temper and killed a guy- but Shakespeare puts it on fate- which brings me to the prologue where Shakespeare calls rome and Juliet, “star crossed lovers”, then again on the night of the ball Romeo says, “Some consequence yet hanging in the stars”.

 

Do you think Shakespeare’s putting the tragedy on fate- or is he questioning it?

 

Exactly my questions- after Tybalt’s murder everyone shows up Prince Escalus, the Montagues and the Capulets- before anyone can say a word, Mrs Capulet calls for Romeo’s blood.  Then Benvolio tells the story of what happened

 

Pretty fairly- I think he comes off pretty objective

 

I agree, and when the Prince asks “Who now the price of this dear blood doth owe.”  Mr. Montague thinks this is enough to let Romeo off the hook, “Not Romeo, Prince, he was Mercutio’s friend; His fault concludes but what the law should end, the life of Tybalt.”

 

The prince had said that if they fought again there would be a death penalty put in place, but we can see here, that he doesn’t have the stomach for that.  And clearly everyone else knows he doesn’t either- hence all the back and forth trying to influence his decision as to what should happen to a clearly guilty party.  There is an aimlessness in this prince- no real leadership.  He may could justify his decision as being an act of mercy, but it doesn’t resolve the conflict between the two families- it barely pacificies one side.  Neither the religious leadership nor the political leadership

 

And here- I want to point out- there is no one here that looks level-headed.  Impulsivity is a reoccurring motif throughout this play and ultimately is a very dominant theme- everyone is so impulsive- obviously Romeo and Juliet are, but so is the Friar, so are the parents and so is the Prince- there is no reason to make a rush to judgement here..and yet he does.  Romeo is banished.  And what is to happen next we will see is one reckless hasty decision after another- everything from this point onward is preventable by just slowing down. 

 

 

Of course death and banishment is the news the nurse delivers to Juliet when she comes in with the rope ladder for the secret honeymoon.  Juliet has been going on and on about night time coming. Every groom wishes his bride were just sitting around saying, “Come night. Come Romeo.  Come though day in night whiter than new snow on a raven’s back. Come, gentle night, come loving, black-browed night, Give me my Romeo, and when he shall die take him and cut him out in little stars, and he will make the face of heaven so fine that all the world will be in love with night and pay no worship to the garish sun.”  Can we say a little bit of that cheese you were talking about?

 

Oh for sure- light and dark are huge symbols in this play, we saw that on the balcony scene and again here- the night time is the world Romeo and Juliet get to flee to.  They are together in the night- they have secrets in the night- all the reasons teenagers today love night time.  Nighttime is the fairy land of dreams- and we’ll talk more about that next week.  At night no one is watching…of course this dream crashes when the nurse busts in with the lines “he’s gone; he’s killed; he’s dead!” Juliet thinks she’s talking about Romeo.  This exchange goes on and on until she finally gets the story out of the nurse.  To which Juliet breaks into an incredibly articulate show of oxymorons basically wonderful how such a beautiful man could be a bad person.

 

, “Oh serpent heart, his with a flower face!  Did ever dragon keep so fair a cave?  Beautiful tyrant! Field angelical! Dove-feathered raven! Wolvish-ravening lamb!  Despised substance of divinest show!  Just opposite to what though justly seem’st, a damned saint, an honorable villain!...read the rest

 

Of course the nurse can explain it with “All men are evil!” and I need a drink!

“There’s no trust, no faith, no honestly in men; all perjured; all forsworn, all naught, all dissemblers.  Ah, where’s my man?  Give me some aqua vitae”

 

Juliet takes one minute to think through her present situation and she makes a decision.  She’s not going back on her wedding vows.  She’s moving forward. Again- I want to make this point.  Juliet is modern day pragmatist.  Listen to Juliet processing her options and then basically decide that Tybalt is not wrecking her plans for herself.

 

Read til the end

 I think this is a good place to end for today. Next week, we’ll see what some unbounded reckless courage along with a little bit hapless planning gets you!!! 

 

We’ve got a lot to cover- but we’ll borrow Romeo’s wings and fly next week through the end of Act 3- all the way through Act 5.  

 

Thanks for listening today.  Please do us the great honor and hit the five star button on your podcast app.  That gets us bumped up the ranks with the boys who control the interwebs!  Also, share an episode with a friend.  Connect with us on howtolovelitpodcast.com for teaching materials or Find us on Instagram or facebook to chat!  We’re always ready to get recommendations for books that have changed the world and can change us.

 

Peace out!

 

 

 

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