(Explicitly Sick) Sexual Assault, Mental Health and Chronic Illness: Musician, Jackie Paladino - a podcast by Hosts: Monica and Eva

Just going to include the transcript this week...

 

Monica: [00:00:26] Oh my gosh. It's been forever since we've gotten to talk. I

Jackie: [00:00:30] think about a year, actually. No.

Monica: [00:00:34] So you're sheltering in place in Arizona. So you're back home. Is that

Jackie: [00:00:39] I'm actually, I was back home. I'm from Jersey, Eric. I grew up in Jersey rather, but I came here last Wednesday. My aunts out here.

Yeah. Just, you know how it is. Families spend too much time with family and it's just too much, too much of anything. It's like, It's not a good thing.

Monica: [00:01:00] I feel really lucky that I have not, not gotten into the frat letters of being sick of my family yet, but it's not, I mean, I'm the adult in the family, so that makes it easier when you're the one in charge.

Jackie: [00:01:13] Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

Monica: [00:01:16] So we decided not to start on anything light on our first interview back. Um, You came to me with a really great topic that I couldn't resist covering, but uh, definitely not going to be late. So I might end up crying.

Jackie: [00:01:34] And then yeah,

Monica: [00:01:36] the emotional I specifically did not wear mascara.

Jackie: [00:01:41] Me either for that reason, no laziness or anything. I mean,

Monica: [00:01:49] partly laziness, but definitely I did not want to be reckoning. Um, so we're doing, um, sexual assault is the topic of the

Jackie: [00:01:58] day and also how it can impact, I guess like the repercussions of sexual assaults. Yeah. Yeah.

Monica: [00:02:10] Yeah. It's like with both of our disorders, that's one of the, the things that they say can not necessarily cause, but definitely they see a aligned through us with fibromyalgia.

They have a tremendous amount of people who have had sexual assault as children

Jackie: [00:02:26] it's through any sickness. I think the more I learn about health, like, you know, psychological, physical, they're both. So, um, Intertwined. And I just wish our society was more educated about everything. That's, that's useful, you know, like this is such useful information and we don't talk about it.

Um, so that's why I wanted to talk about this topic because I feel like there's definitely a gap in terms of yeah. The, I guess, education or the information that's easily accessible to. The general population about this topic, um, and about the repercussions, the negative repercussions of sexual assault specifically.

Um, and hopefully I feel like if, I mean, maybe not, but hopefully I felt like if, you know, education tends to tends to lead to progress, um, and. I was kind of putting my acting hat on and thinking about, um, any of the perpetrators of, you know, in any of these scenarios and maybe thinking that they. Don't have a full grasp of, you know, the act that they're partaking in.

And maybe this was my hope of, um, maybe if they did, and they were a bit more informed than they would think twice about acting on it. You know what I mean? Like there is a lot of ignorance in any kind of criminal activity or, um, and I don't, I mean, I was just trying to be hopeful and thinking. And that way.

Cause like, cause people, I feel like you don't understand it unless it's something that you've gone through. And then if you start reading about, um, if you start reading about any kind of health book, probably it'll touch on the subject of sexual assault, just because it is so ingrained in every illness, unfortunately.

Um, so yeah, I feel like I'm, I'm, uh, I hope I'm making sense, but.

That was just my hope.

Monica: [00:04:49] It's a beautiful hope. I love the, I love that idea. I I'm a little, um, well first I just want to say if this is something that you're experiencing currently right now, or if you need past help, we do have, um, if you should go to show notes at the very top, I'm going to have the number for rain.

And then also, um, of course, like, I don't know about you, Jackie, but I certainly had some. Some very dark, suicidal tendencies, uh, during those times. So I will also have the suicide support numbers up the very top. So if you are in need of help or if at any point, this is like, you know, like trauma is like grief.

It's these like huge waves that come up and they pull you under for a long time and then they get further apart. But there are some sneaky ass undertows that just come up with trauma and grief that just. Unexpectedly pull you. So if you are feeling those polls, please, I will have things in the show notes we're at the very top.

Uh, the only thing that like, I, I would love to hope that too, because so much of our media is, um, I don't wanna say romanticizing, but sexualizing sexual assault. Like if you see sexual assault on a TV show, it's, it's always done pretty like weirdly pretty. And it's like these, this pushes that it's not, it's not that,

Jackie: [00:06:02] um,

Monica: [00:06:03] Bad to do to someone.

And then you have like, there's that, um, that study that was done, where they talked to men who were catcalling women and the men were like, Hey, they appreciate it. You know, I grabbed them on the ass and then they're like, they knew that the hottest girl in their group and women were like, no, no, no, we don't like it.

I'm specifically telling you we don't like it and they're like, no, no, no, you do. So I'm just, I'm always like, you know, I would love to think that if someone hears that this is traumatic, but I think there's so much ingrained in the culture that they don't even believe what we say.

Jackie: [00:06:39] Well, yeah. I don't know if you can, I don't know if you can, uh, I mean, I don't know if we're talking about women here or just anyone in general,

Monica: [00:06:49] anyone?

I think we are absolutely like sexual assault is like anyone on the planet can be, has, you know, it's been touched

Jackie: [00:06:59] her catcalling specifically. I know that I had a former boss or, well, probably just because of the scenario former, but we've, we've stayed in touch. Um, a longterm boss who actually has. Kind of said the opposite of what you're saying.

Um, just because she likes the attention of being catcalled and she doesn't look at it in a negative light, however, you know, the topic of sexual abuse or anything, of course. Um, but I don't think there is. Yeah, I don't think there is a, a pro with being abused and

Monica: [00:07:38] catcalled, like my biggest trauma and not biggest drama, but like the trauma that I can remember first is being 12 and walking down the street and having grown men yell what they want to do to me as I was walking.

And I feel like cat calling, you know, okay. If someone likes that, Don't don't make that. So like everyone has to deal with that shit. Cause that's, um, no one who's cat calling thinks you're going to get a date or, you know, a partner this like that is the specifically like a violent act to make people feel unsafe, being out like that.

That made me feel so unsafe, walking anywhere, being on a street anywhere, it would happen all the time. When I was growing up like walking anywhere, it was like, Terrifying because of the very viral

Jackie: [00:08:23] things. That'd be shouted. I'm sorry to hear that. Um, yeah, I can definitely make it can definitely make you uncomfortable.

Um, Absolutely. I don't understand why people, anytime, anyone just assumes that they have the power to like interrupt your day. You know, like it's, you're essentially like raping our time just by assuming that w you know, we have to engage in this behavior nearly trying to walk down the street. Um, That's how I feel about it sometimes.

Um, I can see her her perspective when it's not, when it's a little bit more innocent and not, um, but maybe that's where the confusion lies. Like if for any attack or I guess if, if that's the word to use, if there are scenarios where people are seeing. Yeah, a positive reactions to that kind of attention and maybe, um, amplifies, you know, I mean, It doesn't make it.

Okay. But, um, I'm trying to get a grasp of understanding,

Monica: [00:09:34] but that's the thing is they're all trying to get a grasp and we're not a high of mind, like, you know, the owners of ovaries, Andries the test owners of testicles. Like none of us are a high of mind. We all have. Have different things, but you made a great point about like, what do we owe, like, do I owe someone my time?

Do I owe someone my attention? Just because I'm sitting by myself or because I was walking by myself, like, do I owe that? You know, do you have the right to like insert yourself into someone else's life?

Jackie: [00:10:04] And even now I feel like that. Well, right now, that's probably happening less in a physical sense, just because of the state of the world right now.

Um, you know, everyone's just out less, especially in New York or if you're like catcalling happens the most are cities and things like that. But because of the age of the digital age and social media that happens or similar events like that happen, um, Via social media and via Instagram, via Facebook and all these things.

Um, especially the more visible you are. Like I recently have been gaining, are there more fans or just like a stronger engagement with my fans online, um, which is overall positive, but it has been very frustrating because I've had to deal with. I guess we could kind of, we could kind of call it. Um, it's a kin to cackling really.

It's like social media catcalling, you know? Um, and it's really frustrating, actually. It's very, very frustrating. It's really hurtful and angering. Um, like I'll have, I'll have a couple of guys. Yeah. I'll have people send me like Dick pics or like ask me for nude photos. I had somebody. Texted me an entirely new photo.

And I'm like, how did this person get my number that was last week? And it's

Monica: [00:11:33] scary because you can get your number. They can get other information about you.

Jackie: [00:11:37] It's really scary. I mean, I blocked them and I blocked everybody else who was treating me with like that kind of disrespect. That's just blatant disrespect.

I don't, there's really nothing else to say about that, but. It's just sad. I feel like even though this is not a gender specific issue, it definitely stems from a lot of the way that our society does you gender, because it is more female centric typically. Um, I can't speak for. Thou GBTQ community, um, or really everyone as a whole.

But I think statistically, it is, I mean, you and I were just talking

Monica: [00:12:17] about our personal experiences and our personal feelings. I mean, that's the, anybody's listening to this. Like that's, that's literally, all we're talking about right now is how we personally feel, because I can't speak for

Jackie: [00:12:26] anyone else.

Yeah. I've personally been trying to vet to be more of an advocate. Um, whenever these situations come up, Just because I've, I'm confused, you know? Um, I th I think I posted about it. I mean, I shared it with some friends just because I had to get some kind of emotional support after a situation like that.

Um, especially during a time, like now, when everyone is everyone's mental health for the most part has been more effected too. So we're all a little bit more vulnerable and like, we just don't need that, you know? Um, and it's also the mining. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, I was saying it's also frustrating for me for if these are my fans.

It's like, I feel like I have a responsibility to help educate or to maybe, um, what's the word, I guess like, Act differently on social media, but I don't know, you know what I mean? Like, like, is it false? But I feel like that's what happens in a lot of these. Like, I don't think it is our fault. Um, I have a pretty, I'm not like overtly sexual.

There are maybe some more sexualized photos, but I'm not overly sexual or social media. That's no problem for that. A lot of people have, it's like getting shameful for having been on the receiving end of, um, situations like this. Someone once said

Monica: [00:14:02] that, um, a rape is as much to do with sex as hitting someone over the head with a pan is to do with cooking.

And I think that, um, that's really true. Like, it's not about how you portray yourself. Like you should be able to walk into a room without a top. And just like men who are able to walk around without a shirt. You shouldn't be treated any differently. Like it is a matter of someone feeling like they should have access to you or that they need to

Jackie: [00:14:27] check

Monica: [00:14:28] you, that you need to be silenced, or you need to behave in a certain arbitrary way.

And that's about control. That's not about you did something wrong that someone wanting to control your space, your words, your

Jackie: [00:14:39] image, it's completely about control and power. You know, it's completely about all of that. And that's why, Mmm. But I think we had originally been talking, we were originally talking about talking about eating disorders and addiction rate and all those illnesses STEM from an inability of feeling out of control and an inability, you know, feeling rendered powerless by there are circumstances typically, um, and less about for eating disorders, you know, like what you look like in the mirror or, um, Yeah, it's really, it's all about control.

And so that's why they're from my experience. And I have, from what I've read has just been, so, Mmm. They can like easily coexist, I guess, you know, we're yeah. I'm not sure to where to use, but I guess like, I guess, yeah, I think sexual assault can definitely cause. Eating disorder and addiction issues as well.

Monica: [00:15:45] I started dieting at eight. I was sexually assaulted when I was five. And I can tell you right now how Lake meshed. Those two things were because I started developing really early. So I wanted to look like my friends who were all skinny and like rulers, they were a little Willow, the wisps. And, um, I felt like they were safer because I got boobs.

And then all of a sudden grown men were paying attention to me in a way I was not okay with. And I was still very traumatized for selling, but I didn't have the right words for.

Jackie: [00:16:19] So I was

Monica: [00:16:20] trying to make myself into a girl again, into a girl's body again, by restricting my food. And that went all the way through your, like my twenties, I think was when I finally stopped, like restricting my calorie intake.

Jackie: [00:16:34] Well, I'm really sorry to hear about that experience. Um, I cannot even imagine like being that young and having to undergo that that's terrifying. Um, Fiona Apple definitely speaks about the same thing. Like exactly what you're saying. And she's naturally not a voluptuous woman. So that's just, it, it really goes to show how, Mmm, I guess how detrimental these situations can be and the intense impact of them, you know?

Cause she's, she has naturally more, very lean women. So for someone to. Stop eating in the hopes of becoming less feminine and becoming less of, um, a target then, you know, it's really bad. Yeah.

Monica: [00:17:29] And there's a lot that we,

Jackie: [00:17:31] we decide.

Monica: [00:17:33] Denotes consent from what someone wears that their clothing has more of a say of yes or no than their words.

Um, for me, it was a body type had more to say than my words, because I mean, I was a 36, 24, 36 from like junior high through high school and I could wear a tee shirt and jeans and I was still a target. Where, you know,

Jackie: [00:17:57] if my friends would have to wear like, you know, like

Monica: [00:18:00] really tiny stuff before they got that level of focus and they very much decided what my reputation was, what it's based on my chest size.

Um, so it was a very, very weird thing. I grew up with the baby got back, became the big song in, in my high school years. And so every time I'd walk into a room. A whole chorus would start when I'd walk in. Wow. Um, yeah. So when I'd say something was bad or something happened, I wasn't believed because I already had this reputation for what I was willing to do or not willing to do that had nothing to do with my actions or my words.

Jackie: [00:18:40] Geez. That's horrible. I mean, that sounds, that's essentially bullying, you know, especially like a whole group of people going against you and telling you what telling you, who you are and what you believe and what you think or how you act. That's just. I think

Monica: [00:18:58] my family, like my mom would be like, you can't go out of the house dressed like this.

Jackie: [00:19:01] And I was

Monica: [00:19:02] like, it's a tee shirt and jeans, but people will think this about you, but it's a tee shirt and jeans, like, what

Jackie: [00:19:08] am I supposed to do? Where I can't for the rest of your life? Like, what are you supposed to wear? Yeah.

Monica: [00:19:13] It was very like, you know what you were saying? Like, you're like, well, what if I do a picture?

What if I like to enjoy my, my body and how it looks like then does that mean that I've signed up for, for this? Do I have to live a blameless life? So people believe what I say. Like, there's, there's so much thought that goes into even the most innocuous decision of which lipstick color. It will say something like,

Jackie: [00:19:38] right.

Yeah. I mean personally, I think, no, I think no, you're definitely not responsible for how other people perceive you. Um, and that, yeah, especially if you're wearing, if you're just,

Monica: [00:19:53] I mean, I think you and I both agree, like your words are what should denote consent, but it's also about, you know, who will believe you when something bad happens?

Like, what does society feel like your treatment should be based on, on arbitrary

Jackie: [00:20:07] things? Yeah, I think this is, yeah, there's just a lot of ignorance and there's just a lot of ignorance even. Um, this is going, I don't know if anyone's talked about this before, but the, I didn't even have Irma. Maybe this is just a reflection of how powerless women are in our society.

But the first time I actually slept with someone, I didn't know. But I had the ability to tell them, no, I don't know. I haven't heard a lot of people talk about that, but I was, and this was the same person who then did sexually assault me after, because then I didn't realize, okay. I do have a say in this matter, but both scenarios where, um, because I was in such a vulnerable position emotionally and just everything, my circumstances were very vulnerable and not split.

Really triggered the scenario, because I know if I was in a similar situation right now, I don't think I would laugh. I don't think, I don't think that would happen. I don't think I would be put in that situation because I'm, I've become, you know, more confident and more aware, you know, and less naive, but as like a teenager, when you're just hanging out with the guy who's.

For this, this was actually a family friend, but I had no idea that I could say no, which is ridiculous,

Monica: [00:21:33] but that's such like a huge thing. That's not in our, our sex ed classes as consent. I didn't know that either. I honestly can tell you. I had no idea that I was able to say no until I, I don't even, I wouldn't even know how, if I was dating, like how, how that would even happen.

Jackie: [00:21:52] Yeah. Um, I don't know why I can't really, even, I don't even know why that is. That is the way it is. I'm sure if we were both, we both felt like that. We can't be the only ones.

Monica: [00:22:06] No. And I know a lot of people who have told me about their first times and it's like, I know another word for what happened there.

That's that's not, uh, that doesn't sound like a loving, respectful first time or even a consensual first time. Like, it just seems like it was the less violent option to just go okay.

Jackie: [00:22:28] Yeah. Mmm. Or not even go. Okay. But you just don't say anything at all, you know, it's neutral. Okay. Well, this is what we're doing now.

And

Monica: [00:22:38] with the SES on a sorry thing that came up, I thought it was one of most important discussions we've had in the United States. That it's not about the no, it's about the enthusiastic.

Jackie: [00:22:46] Yes. That's really helpful. That's a very helpful message. Absolutely. Mmm. Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully. His followers, um, heed his advice.

There

Monica: [00:23:00] did a comedy special after, after that whole thing hit and it was, I've never cried in a comedy special before it was. Um, if anyone wants to know how you actually apologize for things or how you learn from a behavior, that is one of the best things to watch on how you grow from something that you did, that was not good.

We've all done things that were not. Not okay with having done. And that was such a good roadmap for, for how you grow from something. But yeah, that's, that's really, it was beautiful and heartbreaking, but it's a good conversation we need to have, but it's not about watching for no it's that someone should be so enthusiastic.

There's no doubt.

Jackie: [00:23:43] Yeah, absolutely. Especially again, in our society where it is, women apologize more. Have a harder time saying no in general. Um, and I know this is not just a female oriented matter. Um, but yeah, it does. It does happen to more women. I think at least what's been recorded. So, so how do you think that this

Monica: [00:24:11] affected you, um, your, your life's trajectory, your health, your mental health, um,

Jackie: [00:24:19] In so many ways.

I mean, I definitely, it definitely triggered the eating disorder and a feeling of powerlessness that I continue to have, or continue to struggle with, not on a, not a consistent level, but, um, am I more vulnerable moments? I think it's made me more prone to severe anxiety. So anytime there is, um, The possibility of an attack, not just not a sexual attack or fizzle physical attack, but any kind of impact, you know, like we have, we live with like a German or I'm staying with, um, generally right now who has a German shepherd that's been trained

Monica: [00:25:05] to

Jackie: [00:25:07] protect and, you know, attack.

Um, so anytime like. That's been really hard to transition and not feel just intense anxiety anytime I'm with that dog. Um, but yeah, there's really any kind of conflict. I think it's, it just made me more vulnerable to a lot of fear and anxiety and made it really difficult to trust. Anyone that's made it hard to have healthy, romantic relationships.

It was really hard to have sex again, actually. Um, I was, I think, I don't think I've been formally diagnosed with PTSD, but I guess in the law, I just finished a book called truth heals, um, which touches a lot about sexual assaults and each chakra, I guess, that. There's some like an it's not just about that, but it touches, um, about sexual assault and how it impacts each chakra of your body, which I think is really fascinating and helpful because I I'm interested in alternative medicine.

Um, yeah, it's it's um, yeah, it's just made everything a lot harder than it needs to be. Um, and. I guess there's a dichotomy, I think because in some ways it's made me so much more vulnerable, but in so many other ways or in another way, it's maybe really fucking strong, um, and more prone to standing up for myself in any situation that.

There's any kind of an inclination of a threat, you know? So that might be the only silver lining I'd say. Um, yeah, I think I also, I have chronic fatigue and I think it probably has, um, made that like, Made that worse or made that reappear because I had it when I was younger and then it kind of, I had it under control and then it reappeared to a very severe level where it was only able to work like part time, um, a few years ago.

And it's still definitely like, I definitely require more sleep than the average person. Um, so yeah, it's, there are probably other ways. Those are, I'd say the main ways that I can think of. How do you think it's affected your art, your music? Um,

well initially I think it made me have more victim stance that maybe you very

Monica: [00:27:58] fearful

Jackie: [00:27:59] of men. Um, and it may be very isolated. So in a lot of like my earlier work, I think. All of that is very present. Um,

yeah. And it makes people very isolated, I think too, just artistically or otherwise, cause even, um,

I you think it's become so prevalent? Unfortunately, like I have a lot of friends that I could talk to and I'm like, Oh yeah, that happened to me. Like it's wild and devastating that that's common. Um, but at the same time, it is isolating because it's something that not everyone experiences. Thank God. Um, And something that is very uncomfortable and outside, I guess, of the normative narrative of what people expect to happen in their lifetime and anything that's outside of the normal narrative that makes someone feel like they belong in this world of other that's very isolating and can be damaging because then you feel very alone.

Like I remember trying to tell my brother after. One of these events happened and immediately, you know, didn't like, it was, his reaction was complete disbelief and it was also kind of putting the blame on me and I love my brother. Um, but that's just how a lot of people, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Or even, um, recently I was home and my.

Somehow, uh, who was it? The Harvey Weinstein serial came up. Um, and I mentioned how happy I was that he was finally receiving punishment for all of his cases of sexual assault. Um, and I was really hurt and frustrated that my mom, my mom's reaction was kind of towards the women. And she was like, Oh, well, He probably went out with all these women in the entertainment industry and they knew what they were getting themselves into and they just wanted to get ahead.

And I was like, like, are you serious? I was like, I'm like, it's just, it's very sad because I'm like, mom, I've been sexually assaulted twice. Like, like by two different people. And that's not, you know, I know people who've been repeatedly. I can't even imagine what a life like that would be like. Um, but by two different people and.

I don't think, and both of them were young and both of them were actually living with their parents. So it's like, I don't know, but I've, I've gone out with, I've gone out with one older person, not as old as Harvey Weinstein, but like one older person in LA. And I just don't feel like I was. Going into that situation expecting to be raped or like expecting to sleep with that person just because I went out with them.

Um, and it's also like, you don't know what, you don't know how all these women were like how naive they were or how much they were drinking that night, or if they were drugged or, you know, like anything you don't know any of the details of these events to make some kind of a ignorant accusation like that.

Um, and. Put the blame on the victim. It's just really sad. So yeah, it's, I mean, those are really like two people in my immediate family who I love because they're my family, but they're, I mean, I personally feel isolated because I have to explain. And have to, you know, I have to explain and try to get them to change their perspective because of really a lack of general education about all of this.

There's

Monica: [00:32:05] something to this idea that there's a price to admission. Two jobs that are coveted, like musician or actress or writer, or, you know, go through the list or director of, um, that the way that you even could get ahead, like that taking advantage of a position of power is its own issue.

Jackie: [00:32:29] That's.

Monica: [00:32:30] Yeah, there's a, there's a reason that like even quote unquote, consensual relationships are still considered, um, sexual assault is because of a power inequality and that I'm a person who is not on equal power standing cannot be able to consent, which is why we have age restrictions like eight, 13 year old cannot consent.

It's not possible. There's too much of a power switch. They are not. Able to make that decision, uh, prison guards and prisoners can not have a consensual relationship because of the power inequality. Um, therapists can not have a consensual relationship with their, with their, um, their therapy. I can't think today, I'm sorry.

Um, but because of the power and equality, that removes consent and when, if that's like the only way into an industry that has everything you want to be in that removes and the issue of.

Jackie: [00:33:24] Legally all those scenarios that you, wow. I did not know that.

Monica: [00:33:28] I mean, at least as far as I'm concerned, like lethally is like either like by their board where they would get, um, taken, um, like for therapy.

I don't know if it would be a criminal charge, but I do know that you would be your, your license would be revoked.

Jackie: [00:33:41] That makes sense. I mean, for the teenager, that absolutely. I honestly feel like it should be older than what they did consent 16, 18. It depends on what state you're

Monica: [00:33:52] in. So some States are as low as 14 or 13.

And, um, that is just, I have a 13 year old, um, that breaks me that we have child marriages breaks me, um, that in some countries, the age of consent is as low as 12. That breaks me because that is not ever benefiting the young person

Jackie: [00:34:16] ever. You're not even, you're not even developed at that age for the most part.

I don't think I didn't have. I think I was maybe just getting my period when I was like 12, 13, like you're not, so yeah,

Monica: [00:34:31] I'm just trying to say is that when you have like a power inequality, that's its own, but this own thing. And also who has ownership over your body? That's saying we've been talking a lot about in our house about like, Who has the ownership.

So like when someone is Siri, um, I don't know how to, I do not know how to delete Siri. Like it's driving me nuts every time I'm talking to she's like, hi, let me help. No, don't help stop. Um, my dad and I were watching Outlander right now together. That's our father daughter way of staying in touch during this.

And he and I were talking about like the idea of not just consent, but who gets to consent. So like where Jamie gets really upset about like anyone talking about Claire or trying to touch Claire, but it's like, she's my wife. It's not that I don't want her hurt. It's that no one should hurt my property.

And then you get into this question of, are we just consumables as owners of ovaries? Are we just, you know, I remember my dad getting very upset that anyone would like, say anything about me or try to touch me, but it was like, I know he really cared about, he didn't want me hurt, but some of it was no one touches my daughter.

Yeah. And then it was the boyfriends. You can't say that about my grill.

Jackie: [00:35:44] Mmm. Yeah. I'm not even extends to just, yeah, you're right. That does extend to a lot of ownership. And that's why I feel like, Mmm. I mean, I have, ex-boyfriends here upset if like they're friends come on to me or whatever, but like, they don't want to be with me.

And it's like, it's probably because of that. It's not because. Yeah. I mean, hopefully it's because they care about maybe the way I'm being treated, but it's also like, Oh no, that was like my girlfriend, my property, you know, um, unconsciously that's probably is a little bit what's going on. Um, and yeah, that's all about ego.

I don't know. I feel like it's always going to be power. There's always going to be some kind of an, a power imbalance, you know, it's never going to equally, but why has that.

Because women are still making, you know, uh, however many cents to the dollar that Amanda does. So it's just never going to be maybe not never that's that's not, that's not helpful, but right now it's not. Yeah. We're not on an equal playing field.

Monica: [00:36:56] I

Jackie: [00:36:56] finished six, how much we check each other,

Monica: [00:36:59] like. So much of the violence.

Um, I don't see a lot of men checking each other, like in Hollywood, you don't see, like, there wasn't a lot of guys who were going, you know, to Harvey Weinstein going now, you got to stop this. Absolutely not. But women, we check each other all the time on our clothing, on our behavior. Like I think that one of the ways to get to a more equal playing field would be to be more supportive of each other and to stop checking each other.

Jackie: [00:37:29] Absolutely. I mean, it's definitely, I think it all stems from a patriarchy really is, you know, it's exactly what you're saying. It's because he's a man in a position of power and everyone else is, I guess, why women have issues with other women, especially in entertainment. Mmm. It's because their competition and it's just so overtly competitive and yeah, it's, it's like we all have to, there's some kind of, um, unsaid rule about having to comply to the rules of patriarchy and look, and act and sound like what, I guess like a white male wants to just, you know, um, I make, I actively go against that in any opportunity that I can, you know, an opportunity that presents itself.

Mmm. Because it can be, it can be, there's just so many levels so that it could be relatively harmless, just like the heart, like a comment about, Oh, like you should dress like this or look like this, or. Yeah. Like even, even to the level of like, Oh, like maybe you should, maybe you should not exercise as much because men like curvier girls.

And I'm like, since, when did I start living my life? Since when did I start living my life for another human being outside of myself, like I, I do whatever I want for myself to make me happy. And. Longterm. And that's actually something that I really struggled with my eating disorder because I used to be a competitive gymnast and I was really muscular.

I'm just like a naturally metamorphic body type. I'm just naturally, so I build muscle really easily. And it maybe they're insecure at that time. Um, because yeah, because it made me feel very, like, I felt very masculine. Mmm. And now I wish I had a little bit more of that muscle because it's healthy for me, you know, it's healthy to work out.

It's. Um, my opinion is more aesthetically pleasing too. And also because I'm more aware that any gender has the combination of masculinity and femininity, so it doesn't. Mmm. Yeah, I guess. I mean, those are just a few reasons, but yeah, for, for, for someone to tell you that you shouldn't be working out because got it.

I can, I don't know. It goes, it goes back to power. Okay. So you don't want me to be healthy, so exercise can help you in any sin, any illness that I'm aware of, you know, like you're less, if you got cancer or whatever, and you've had a very active life, you're more likely to. Rebound cover any, I think that's, that's probably the case for every single, you know, like Mmm.

Chest pain or like your heart or anything like that, like running it's just so you're telling me, so you don't want me to be healthy, help you, like you got me, you want to keep me down to this level really? Um, because of the entity because of vanity and power it's yeah. Mmm. Okay. Yeah, we do have, as women have to Mmm.

Support each other more. And it's, I guess a matter of baby steps, I do have friends, you are creating more your communities like online communities for women to support women and collaborate more and have been seeing a lot more of that. So that's really helpful and definitely a step in the right direction.

Hmm.

Someone had a

Monica: [00:41:37] thing that was, uh, it said, um, my life was not in addition to be your wife. And I think that's like, it's such a thing on like, Not just like for marriage, but like that we're always auditioning for something. I feel like we're always on a stage being judged, um, weighed and measured, but not, not on the things that actually matter.

Not on our agency, not on our, our creativity, not on our souls. Um, but on things that are, are various upper fluids and also the idea that we're damaged, if we were raped or sexually assaulted, I know that's something that I felt pretty heavily because there were so young when it happened and it happened many times as I was growing up.

So I felt very, very, uh, damaged or used goods. And that was thing that was used a lot in the like, um, pro abstinence training was like you, if someone uses you, you're used, you're not. You're not as good as someone who wasn't used no matter, you know, what happened. And that was, that really was internalized.

Jackie: [00:42:39] Did you grow up in a religious. Family

Monica: [00:42:44] ish. Um, extended family, very religious. My parents are hippies, so not there, but there was, there was a lot of, you know, my dad is a wonderful, wonderful man, but there was a lot of, you know, he was not trained in feminism until my mom really worked with them. Um, and he's definitely come a long way, but there was, there was a lot there that, you know, it was hard and then there's medical gaslighting.

So my mom would tell me not to put it on my. My medical stuff on my sexual assault that I had because the doctors, when I would, would be like, Oh, it's not real pain. It's, it's mental. She's insane. I almost got institutionalized because I had, um, RSPD, which now is called CRPS, um, from a, another doctor who was very inappropriate, but that's another story for another time.

Um, but when I was 16, I couldn't walk and they were like, Oh, you're insane. Because you went through bad things. It's not a real pain thing. So it, it took, um, yeah, they told my mom to institutionalize me for that. Well, I I'm a lot older than you. Um, so it was a very different like mindset. Um, but I, I feel like it's still prevalent.

I just feel like we talk more and like anything shameful once it sees the light. Mmm. Good things happen. Like shame thrives, that things thrive in the dark. It never protects the right people.

Jackie: [00:44:10] Yeah. Well, I'm glad I didn't know that. So I'm glad that at least we've made some progress because I feel like it is more assumed that any kind of trauma is real pain.

Um, but there is a huge stigma stigma with anyone. Who suffers from mental illness. So there's definitely a long way to go. You know, like I think I read that emotional abuse actually has more long stancing negative effects than physical abuse. Um, sexual assault is both a physical and emotional, the abuse scenario.

Um, so that's just a wilderness honorees, honestly. Um, People wouldn't understand that emotional pain is.

Monica: [00:45:00] Let me think about it. And no one, no one questions that you were robbed. Like no one goes, Oh, I don't know if you were actually robbed. No one questions. If you broke a leg, they're like, Oh, you broke a leg.

Like. Sexual assault is one of the only things I can think of or emotional, um, basically assault, um, is one of the only things I can think of where people question your reality at such a high level. Like I even bullying. I feel like people believe

Jackie: [00:45:25] that's even harder. Cause that's how do you prove someone emotionally abused you?

Monica: [00:45:29] Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of good gaslighting where you even start to question, if you were emotionally abused, like the gas lettings real.

Jackie: [00:45:38] If enough people, if enough people contradict your, your feelings and your truth, then. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why. Talk to me about is she's like this and interacting with other people who have undergone similar scenarios to your own is so powerful and helpful because it really helps secure your sanity, you know, and makes deep just by making you feel less alone and allowing you the space to share your story and also showing you what's what,

Monica: [00:46:12] what the world could be.

What's possible. If you're in a closed circle, some abuse can start to seem really normal or acceptable, or that person was just born at this time. So don't take it so seriously. Um, yeah, that's personal experience there. Um, and it takes sometimes talking to other people to realize just how fucked up a situation can be.

Jackie: [00:46:37] Yeah. Um, Definitely. There was something that I, there was something you were talking about that you brought up some other idea that I want to touch on. And I can't remember what it was.

I think you were talking about, you were talking about agency and creativity and commenting on how women are not. Or I guess people in general, um, but oftentimes especially women are not valued or appreciated for other aspects of ourselves, aside from beauty and physical appearances. Um, and yeah, that is, so that is, that is so frustrating.

Um, and very real and that's, that was my first. Those were kind of my first thoughts. Um, last week when I think three people like two people sent me nude photos, and two people asked me for ask me for nude photos. Um, and that was, that was my reaction. I was like, wait, hold on a second here. Like I do you mean to tell me that.

You know, like my talent, my education, my, the scholarships I received for my education, my test scores, um, how I carry myself, like my intellect, my thoughts, um, my soul, my spirit, like none of these matter to you, you know, like, you know, um, and it's really degrading. Um, And I mean, it's, it's just hurtful and sad.

Um, there's really no other way to say it, but it feels like in that scenario, it felt like. I was in a position where I was kind of like, well, what strategy can I use to win here? Because if I don't, if I don't look attractive, you know, right now I'm not wearing any makeup. And I mean, I still think I'm attractive, but right now, like I am not wearing any makeup.

My hair is in a button, you know? Aye, I'm very natural or whatever. And. If I, I might be attacked for not wearing makeup or not wearing trendy clothes or not looking a certain way. Um, but if I do, then I receive more attention. Um, so I don't, I don't know. And also, or also like if, uh, if a woman does. Dress well, and it was perceived as outwardly beautiful than there automatically assumed to not have any kind of intellect or, you know, solely, solely exists as that visual object.

Um, and that's also very frustrating. That's something that I experienced in college a lot, because I would dress up a lot during university and. I think I, I did have some professors who automatically like, were shocked that I was able to formulate or have the capacity to think, um, yeah, just analyze certain novels or stories or write essays in the way that I did.

Um, so I don't understand why they can't be coexisting like beauty and intellect in any other, um, Quality about oneself can coexist harmoniously. Um, but that's, I think that's where we're at on a base level of our society is that they can't.

Monica: [00:50:52] I think at a base level or society, we have decided that owner owners of ovaries or those who present as female are commodity to be consumed by men.

And I think that's a very visceral unreal thing, um, through the writings. Through the music videos through advertising through TV shows. I think it's just a baseline of commodity to be bought and sold, which makes our souls and words secondary, um, to the idea that we are bought and sold. And. That's hard.

I'm raising a 13 year old and that's sort of, I can make sense of the tight rope we're supposed to walk of being attractive, not being attractive,

Jackie: [00:51:37] being smart, not being too smart,

Monica: [00:51:38] being physically active, but only if my husband was like trained to get it. He really was trying to get I'm like, I have the best way to make you get it.

And I showed him girls' life magazine cover and boy's life magazine cover. I was like, see for the boys. It's about adventure, about the self, about growing as a human growing, as a strong human growing, an interest in intellect here's girl's life. And they're both, they're both marketed to 12 through 13. Um, and the girl's life was

Jackie: [00:52:06] how do you look pretty.

How do you get a

Monica: [00:52:08] boyfriend? How do you make your friends

Jackie: [00:52:11] comfortable? It's

Monica: [00:52:11] all about

Jackie: [00:52:12] making those around you, comfortable and attracted to you

Monica: [00:52:15] and nothing about college. Like the boys, like was like, how do you set up your life to be in a good college to get your, what D what job do you want? And this was what boyfriend do you want?

Jackie: [00:52:24] What friends do you want? How do you, how do you commoditize yourself and package yourself?

Monica: [00:52:28] How do you audition as a wife? For the rest of your life, like right now, ladies, think about how you present yourself to be a lady, to be charming, to make those around you feel good. And that stuff is

Jackie: [00:52:41] real. Like we're

Monica: [00:52:41] taught from very young

Jackie: [00:52:43] to take the temperature of a

Monica: [00:52:44] room for our personal and physical safety, as well as to make others feel better.

And how to do that. Like how much of our personalities are set around the idea that we're trying to make others

Jackie: [00:52:54] comfortable. Yeah, how much

Monica: [00:52:57] of our safety gets compromised by that? How much of our safety gets compromised by if I say no to you, can I walk to my

Jackie: [00:53:04] car afterwards? I've experienced that scenarios so many times in a professional level.

I'm not, if I say no to you, will I get to my car safely? But if I, and it really, it does come back to power and control because there've been no, I'm a, I'm a woman. Who is a freelance actress and musician. And there are so many scenarios where aye get hit on. And there's like, I guess there's an overlap between professional and romantic or there can be.

Um, and so if someone hits on me, the music industry and I say no to them, then that there is the fear of wow. We'll we'll well, I continue to. Can I have a career. If I say I say no to the wrong person, you know? Um, yeah. Um, I guess stop you there. Um, so we're at an hour, so tuna

Monica: [00:54:06] next week to part two of this conversation.

Cause ah, the thing we are not even close to being done yet. So I'm going to, to just say like right now is where we're going to stop recording for this episode and um,

Jackie: [00:54:21] yeah. So

Monica: [00:54:21] tune in for next week.

 

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