Wayne Barnes on the sofa - a podcast by BBC Radio 5 live

Wayne Barnes, one of the greatest rugby referees in history, joins Chris, Ugo and Ashy on the sofa. Barnes retired from officiating after taking charge of the Rugby World Cup final, his 111th international match. He reflects on his magnificent career, which games stick in the memory, and why a certain bar in New Zealand has a special place in his heart. Barnes also discusses what the sport should look like going forward, and whether refereeing is a science or an art.

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