017 - Multiple Sclerosis - Ali Moore - Acceptance and Resilience - a podcast by Bron Webster - diagnosed 1996, mum with MS, expert MS patient and still mob

Bron chats with Ali Moore (psychotherapist) about acceptance, resilience, and living with your disease.

Recognising your feelings and being kind to yourself, acknowledging that there are always dark days alongside the brighter days are important steps to coping with the unpredictability of MS.

“Acceptance can feel quite passive … but it’s really powerful. Once you get to that point where you say, ‘I’m accountable’ and ‘I’m responsible’”

 

TRANSCRIPT

This is the MS show podcast, people with multiple sclerosis and their families who want information and inspiration. I'm Bron Webster. I've been living with Ms for over 20 years. I'll be sharing with you tips stories from ways to keep going through them and Hello, and today I'm really, really excited to be with my good friend Ali Moore and Ali is a behavioral therapist, a coach and author and she specializes in the science of self esteem and relationships. She's also a celebrant. So welcome, Allie. It's great to have you today.
Thank you. Good to be here.
So can you tell us a little bit just about your background First of all, and how you got into what it is that you're doing?
Sure. So I like many people have Corporate background originally, and I started off many years ago in the world of HR, but I was always fascinated by people. And so I quickly moved into leadership development and training. And through that I qualified to be a coach. And when I was doing coaching, I absolutely loved it. And I was I was blessed to work for what was at the time quite small company. And you may have heard a bit called Amazon. And I joined them just as they came into the UK. So I was really blessed to have my career, grow with them, and be able to explore this interest in training, development and people. So qualifying as a coach was amazing. But I then went through some life experiences myself and I went through psychotherapy, and it made me realize that there was there was an added extra that I wanted to do. I wanted to be able to give people the support That the therapy process had had really given me. And it really enabled me to work through some of those experiences that I had been through myself. So I went on to train as a therapist, and through that I just really kept my love of people and their stories and what makes people tick. And that's kind of where my love of looking at relationships and self esteem came from. I just believe that if we nurture our self esteem, and we understand where that comes from, it just really underpins everything about the lives that we need and the relationships that that we have. So I've been really blessed to be able to set up my private practice. And I've been in private practice now for four and a half years and do a whole mixture do one to ones or do membership. Yeah, it's it's really varied and that's an absolute necessity. Smee
great stuff. And obviously you're here and we're doing a podcast for the MS show. Now, you yourself don't live with Ms. But you know me, you see how I sort of experience Ms. And over your times have you encountered any health battles and challenges?
For me personally? Um, um, yes. So I am, it isn't on the scale of of, of Ms. As you say I don't have MS myself, I encounter things in two ways. Firstly, I work with quite a few clients who've got long term health conditions, but personally, I have a condition called TMJ which is a nerve problem that kind of starts off around the jaw area but actually can be triggered once you have it by stress and you No and I had days when I really have to manage that it causes quite intense migraine headaches, pain and pain right down my left side. And this was originally caused by some surgery that I had a few years ago. And following that surgery, I spent six months with a walkingstick, which was really unexpected. And that was nothing to do with the actual surgery, but from the process that I went through. So whilst I don't have that experience of a condition like Ms, as I say, I see that with my clients, and I do have a condition that I've really had to kind of take note of and understand that I have my limitations.
Brilliant. Yeah, not brilliant. It's not. It's not a great thing. But what it means is that you absolutely get the challenges that all of the listeners to this podcast, my 10 counter, you've been through that process of coming terms with having an unpredictable condition that just wipes you out. And I just thought right at the top of the conversation, I just think that is a really useful thing to put into context that not only do you help people with all this wonderful therapy that you offer, and all the work that you do about the reconnection movement that I know you're heavily involved in, but you have also personally got experience. So thanks for sharing that with us before we get into things. And so I know that you have been to the Tower of London and that you have had a really big stage talking about self esteem. Yes. So what sort of what sort of things have you been involved in on your self in self esteem in your relationships? Wow.
Yes. So I was asked a couple of ago to be the lead speaker for historical palaces at the Tower of London. And they were celebrating 100 years of boats for women. And I work predominantly with women on their self esteem. So it was a real honor to go along and do the presentation and talk to the audience that was coming to the Tower of London about the concept of self esteem. I've also done various talks at different conferences. I have run my own empowerment days, where we talk to women about what that means to feel empowered, and also hosting a sort of day retreat that I run called find your role which is all about inviting women to come along and understand what it means to have a nurture that self esteem. So I've had loads of opportunities, as well as being a published author, which was a which was lovely thing to happen. And my book was published Just over 18 months ago,
and what's the name of the book Ali?
it's called reconnect your life. And it's, um, it's a mixture of client stories. It's a mixture of Theory and Applications and mindful living. And it's also a 30 day journaling process to help you to also get reconnected to who you are and help sort of lift that feeling of self esteem within.
Okay, and then I've got a copy of that book. I haven't done the 30 day journaling. I will I'm a man. But, but there are some really, really important and useful sections in there that I've read. And something that I'm really keen on in terms of living with multiple sclerosis is the whole process that I've been through of grieving, and I happen to find myself Again, and reach that point of accepting my condition. And it's really difficult I find, to put acceptance to explain what it is and how it feels. And I just wonder, because I know you've got a whole section in your book about acceptance. I know with Ms. accepting that we've got ms or we've got a disability. It's not easy. And I just wondered if you could share your wisdom.
I will, I will try. So the concept of acceptance has been huge for me in terms of understanding my own journey of personal development and dealing with the things that I've experienced. And also watching how my clients go through that process. And it forms one of the key tenants, I just feel that acceptance as as a concept is one of the most important pieces of the puzzle that people go through. So I can remember when I was first kind of bringing the concept of mindful living, which is a big part of how I work with clients into my practice alongside the traditional therapy, and talking therapy, and feeling like acceptance at the time, to me sounded a bit passive, it sounded as though we just kind of were expected to put up with something. And it was just how it was. And that felt to me a bit like you were being asked to give in, you know, and give up wrong and, you know, we talked about moving forward, don't wait, you know, and, and it was only when I started this and in the research that I've also done in terms of how people come to terms with relationships, and thing with their own sense of self discovery that acceptance is actually really powerful. So acceptance is all about understanding that what has happened has happened and it can't unhappen. But that because you've made that choice to say, this is where I am. And you've also started to take on board that you are accountable and responsible for yourself, as opposed to blaming everyone else or blaming the world, you know, carrying Angus through with you that once you get to that point that says, actually, I'm accountable, and I'm responsible, and this is where I am and this is what's happened. Suddenly, I saw clients starting to see possibilities. And it happens quite quietly. I've done talks on this where I've said, you know, I've never yet had a client walk into a The therapy room and go, Oh, my goodness, Sally, I've got it, you know, it's all become clear. And the process of acceptance has happened over a period of time. And it's just little things in the language where initially, there might be blame for something else. They might be blaming the situation, other people, the world. And all and they don't see that they've got any options. They don't see that they've got choice, or they don't feel like they're worthy, or they don't feel like they've got that ability. And then suddenly, they start to use phrases like, well, maybe. Well, maybe I could have a go. Well, you Yeah, that might be a good point. Well, I could look at it differently. Well, what if and I think when you see people moving into that space, you kind of realize that they're starting on that journey of acceptance, they're starting to see that they can choose now how they live with whatever it is going forward.
Are you choosing how to live life going forward, did you know that I run a private Facebook group of people with multiple sclerosis and their families, it's called multiple sclerosis and UK help multiple success community. It's the perfect place to hang out and get more SMS inspiration and motivation. All you need to do is look in Facebook, multiple sclerosis and UK help multiple success communities. I'll see you back.
Absolutely. And I think some of the people that I talk with whether it be online conversations, I really say to them Ultimately you are in a system where you are going to have a neurologist, and you're going to have an MS nurse, and you're going to have a group of people around you. But this is your disease, and this is your body. And actually, you don't need to wait for those people to come to you with any of the answers or any of the next steps. Try and it comes back to what you were just saying about not. It's not so much blaming other people, although I'm sure there's a lot of kinds of feelings of blame that go on. But I say to people, don't wait for these other people. They're not responsible for action, and they're not responsible for whatever's going to happen. So try and take a little bit of ownership and see what you can do for yourself. Yes. And so is that partway along the acceptance path when you start taking that responsibility,
definitely because people can become quite passive and they can put themselves right in the hands of everyone else. And they can leave it up to other people to make their decisions for them, because perhaps they feel they don't have the knowledge themselves. They're not the expert, and it can feel as though things are being done to us. But as humans, we like to be in control. You know, I have never met a client as yet, who would completely like to hand over the reins to somebody else, there is always an element of wanting to be in control. And when you realize that, no, you may not be the expert in this particular disease, you know, from a medical perspective, but you are the expert in terms of how you feel and your body and you realize that actually, you can be the person who guides the people around and they stop being people who are doing things to you. And they start being people who are there to support you in the decisions you want to make. That that is, yeah, that is a huge part of seeing that people are moving into that sign of acceptance.
And I think what you've just said about seeing them and working with them in a different way. Yeah, that is a really positive thing for people to take away. Because I do hear people say, you know, things ground to a halt or I wasn't being given all the information. And it's about creating a bit of a team spirit with your professionals, and keeping your own interests and your desires in mind. Yes, yeah. And also what happens With multiple sclerosis for many people, not everybody, you go through life you have a diagnosis and your diagnosis is this is one of my personal hobbyhorses. But your diagnosis is one where you are faced with a progressive neurological condition. Yeah. which in itself is a massive. They're really big words to hear. And dealing with that is huge. But the way that the disease progresses is different for everybody, but people will tend to think, oh, I've just got messed up, right. Okay, I know what's going on. And I know how to expect everything that's happening in my life and I know that my left sides really weak. So they make adjustments for that. But Ms being what it is. It just then for whatever reason, decides It's going to throw another curveball at you and hit you with another set of symptoms that you've never ever encountered. And so I've sort of come to the realization that with MS, we end up going through this process of grieving, not just at the point of diagnosis, but on an ongoing basis as things happen time and time again. Yeah. And I just wanted to sort of, I guess, kick that around a little bit with you
to see
how that fits into the whole landscape of our belief in ourselves and our connection with ourselves, etc. So,
I think that I think that's a huge thing. And I know you and I have chatted about this before because we use this analogy of grief don't mean and I think there is a grieving for the person that you felt that you were before. The diagnosis or for many of my clients before the incident happened, you know, there was that me before. And then whatever it is happens. But in certain situations, the situation is now as it is and it doesn't change. So we hear this phrase used a lot, the new normal.
And
you can be in a situation where something awful has happened and you're grieving for that and you're grieving for the person you were. But you are now in a pretty stable landscape all by it, not one that you wanted to be in. But you are able to kind of come to terms and think what is this new normal, but with something like Ms. As you say that it's like you're standing on shifting sands, isn't it because you're always moving. And so that grief cycle that we talked about, in general terms of denial and anger, And acceptance, you know is included within that grief cycle is is not linear anyway, for most people, but certainly, this is something where you're constantly having to readjust who you are and you're constantly potentially feeling an impact on your sense of identity, your sense of self and I talk about self esteem as being a platform, you know, and it's held up by pillars like self worth, self confidence, how much you value yourself, your social identity, how other people see you. And when those are all lovely and solid and cemented into the ground, you have this wonderful platform on which to be the person that you that you want to be. But when they get knocked and chopped, and they become wobbly, we start to lose confidence in ourselves and we start to doubt yourself. And there is this complexity when you are faced with something thing which is forever changing, which suddenly comes out of the blue and knocks you for six again, about how do you ever find that stable footing? How do you ever find the identity of the person that you are now? Because it's it's constantly changing? And it's Yeah, it's it's a real challenge and and quite different, I think to people who have gone through an incident awful as it was, but are now faced with adjusting to life afterwards.
So I think it's an extra, it makes it extra difficult, and I think anybody that lives with this sort of condition. I think it's just another reason that you can say to yourself, this is how bloody strong I am. Actually, yes, I'm doing this. And I'm dealing with this. And if you hit those new experiences, and those new Hard times, you know, from your past experience, I guess that you can get through this.
Yes.
It might be difficult. Yeah.
What were you going to say? I
think that's really important is to keep track of your achievements.
And that might sound corny, but to keep track of those achievements so that when something new occurs, you do have that to fall back on. You can look back and say, Well, look, this happened. And I and I got through it this way. And then that happened. And I got through it this way, and start to build up that bank of tools that will allow you to think about how you're going to apply those tools. Almost I guess it acceptance comes into play again here. It's almost like the acceptance that something else is most likely going to happen. Right? Yeah. But if I'm okay in accepting that, then in a way I can prepare myself, so it's not constantly coming out of the blue.
Yeah. And I think that's probably what I've reached. So hard as that new. I had a new symptom hit me that I'd never had. Yeah. And so it hit me and I went through the whole couple of days of, wow, what is this? How am I going to cope with this? But then, because I've lived with it for as long as I have, I've already built up the words that I used to talk to myself to say, but this is this is something that you know, can happen. Yeah. And that you are going to get through it. Yeah. So I think at the outset of the diagnosis, it might feel really difficult. Yeah, every time something comes, but as time progresses, you can build up that resilience Definitely, yeah, I think resilience is a really important element for people to bring into their lives when they've got Ms.
Absolutely. And and we know now that resilience is something that, you know, not everybody has in bucket loads, you know, that due to lots of issues and challenges they may face, but it is something that you can grow. It is something that you can learn. So the fact that you haven't felt so resilient, perhaps previously, does not mean that you don't have the capacity to build that resilience. And I think that's a really important message that I talk with my clients a lot based on lots of situations, you know, you may, you've may have felt in the past that you didn't have that toolkit, but that doesn't mean that you don't have the ability to have it now. And
for people that are thinking my resilience Actually, I'm All Out of response, I'm all out of their ability to be able to deal with this and they just want to shut themselves away. Do you? And do you come across people in your in your business in your sort of client list? Who are at that stage? And what would you say to them? And what advice would you give them as part of your conversations that you're having with them? Yeah, of course.
The first thing is with the type of therapy that I practice, we're not looking to create a perfect life. We are looking to understand that to live well. There are dark times and there are happy times, there's lightness, dark, there's joy and there's sadness and understanding that you will have days when you feel like that and you're entitled to them. And there's nothing wrong in feeling like you want to shut yourself away and being able to say to yourself, okay, if I feel that way, and I want to do that Starting to ask yourself, what is it I need from this time? What is it that I want to reflect on? What is it that my brain My body is saying to me at this time? Is it that actually you you need rest? And you just need some space away from people? Is it that there's something that you need to work through? And, and it's about having that ability to question yourself as to why you're doing it. It is not about saying, I need to get over this as quickly as possible. And I should always be trying to look on the positive side, you know, that isn't how resilience works. Resilience is about being able to lean into those tough times and say, What am I going to gain? So I'm going to shut myself away, and I'm going to withdraw because I've just about had enough. What would I gain from doing that? What change will that make for me? And these are the kinds of questions that when you start getting into them having that conversation, you tend to find that you come up with something that allows you to take another step outside that door. And that might sound a little bit airy fairy, but this is not a there is not. As you know that there is not an exact science to this, you know, there is not a solution where I say, Oh, you feel that way. So do this, and then you'll feel better. And then you can just carry on, it is about just being able to recognize that it's about acknowledging that it's okay to be like that and to feel like that and we don't have to carry on regardless, and we can feel sorry for ourselves. And a lot of clients are surprised when I say that to them because we've we've had this movement of positive psychology, and it's got a bit misinterpreted and everyone thinks that they've got to be thinking positive all the time. And that isn't how it works, you know? So questioning yourself questioning why it's happening question What it's going to bring you and thinking about what you might do next, and being kind and compassionate to yourself. And accepting that these days will happen is a really good place to start in terms of coming out the other side.
That's really, really good in terms of ideas. And I only wish that back in the day when I was stuck in my place that I was stuck in that I had known somebody like you. And that way we could have talked about such things. But I think they are really really useful tips. And that to know that actually, this is quite normal. And then on the other side, there are going to be a lot of people that were just getting on with life with Ms. And are celebrating and they are out there and they are running marathons or doing amazing things and that we really don't know Have to measure ourselves against anybody else?
Absolutely not. I mean, we don't want to be comparing ourselves regardless, you know, that compare tinnitus is the thief of joy is one of my favorite sayings. And we all find ourselves at some point comparing ourselves to somebody else. I have regularly with clients to use, use an analogy that you and I spoke about. I don't even know if you remember talking to me about this, but you spoke to me about the fact that you can, you can live against your illness constantly trying to prove yourself constantly trying to prove that it's not going to affect you, and it's not going to impact you. And actually all that does is create more problems or you can live with your disease. And you can go into that place of acceptance, understand your limitations, but that's it then it doesn't have to define you if you feel like running away. marathon, run a marathon. But if you're like me, and you can barely run to the shops, and that is without ms, then that's okay as well, right? We are all at different places in our lives and in our journeys, and we live with what we have with us as a person rather than constantly feeling like, I got to do better. You know, we there's a lot of that going on in the world. And for a lot of people, and we need to stop trying to do all of this being your best you and all of that just be you just as well. And be you.
Yeah. Yeah. You're good enough as you are. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I like that. I think we could chat for hours and hours and hours, about all sorts of things. But I think in terms of this episode, and really unpacking accepts Some resilience I think has been fantastic. And I really hope that is going to be of use to people and that people take some inspiration and some action.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah. So Ali, when I get to the end of when I'm talking to people for the podcast, I always ask a totally unrelated question that gives us a little bit of an insight into you when your personality can that is thinking about you can be anywhere in the world. So COVID lockdown is no longer. Okay, be anywhere in the world. Yeah. And you're going to be drinking your favorites drink. It can be alcoholic, non alcoholic, whatever it might be. Oh, and we'd really like to know where you would be.
Gosh, I would be for anywhere in the world. Actually, my favorite spot on planet Earth is the chalice well gardens in Glastonbury. And I would be sitting there in the sun in the meadow, I would be drinking my favorite tipple, which is, as most people know, a lovely glass of Prosecco, which I'd have in my lovely stylish hip flask that I carry with me, and plus properly my Nan's flask with some tea in it as well. And looking up the hill at the tool that sits on the hill in Glastonbury. Yeah, I think that's, I think if I could choose anywhere, that's where I would be and that's what I'd be drinking. Mm hmm. And would it be
daytime? Would it be sunset time? Would it be warm weather?
Oh, it'd be warm weather. Gotta be more than weather. Yeah, I'm not good in the cold. And, and it would be probably just after midday, actually, just after the one minute meditation silence that they hold there. And yeah, when it's and it's just got a really peaceful feel. And yeah, that that's where I would be
lovely. That is great. Thank you so much for joining us today, Ali.
You're welcome. It's been great to chat with you.
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