Black Wave, bitter enemies and grudging allies - a podcast by ABC Radio

A special full-length interview with Kim Ghattas of the BBC and The Financial Times about her new book Black Wave: Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the Forty-Year Rivalry that Unravelled Culture, Religion and Collective Memory in the Middle East.

The Emmy Award-winning journalist explains how the Saudis and the Iranians have competed for the hearts, beliefs and money of the Muslim world in the 40 years since the 1979 revolution in Iran. She explains how both countries radicalised Islam in places where it had traditionally been more open and pluralist, such as Egypt, Lebanon and Pakistan.

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